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metrocubicodigital
02-28-2012, 05:39 PM
Hello there,

I just canīt understand why.
My lastest works (around 10) have been rejected into the 3D gallery.

While in other sites, with the same images, Ive won 3 Total Excellence Awards (3dtotal.com), 2 images of the week (3dartistonline.com) and all have had front pages in Evermotion.

Is my work that bad? Is this somekind of bug in the system?

Something doesnīt right.

Not saying my work is super perfect, but I can see looking at the other images in the gallery forum, that my work is decent to be included.

Best regards,
Jacinto Monteiro

metrocubicodigital
03-08-2012, 02:48 PM
A little bit of support would be nice :/

leigh
03-08-2012, 03:04 PM
Well the fact is that no single person can give you an explanation, as the work is all voted on by a panel of people, each of whom make their choices for their own reasons.

metrocubicodigital
03-08-2012, 04:13 PM
Ok thanks for the answers Leigh!

I just find odd is why my first works were accepted and my latest (which i find better) arenīt being accepted? Did some rules change in the meanwhile?

I honestly believe you should give more opportunities to clean architectural visualizations.

Just my 2 cents.

Best regards,
Jacinto

leigh
03-08-2012, 07:12 PM
Well the panel voting thing is relatively new - previously, I did all the gallery validation myself, but in the interests of fairness we brought in a few more people to form a panel to validate entries a few months back.

Anatoliy
03-26-2012, 08:59 AM
Agree with Jacinto Monteiro, I'm 12 years in 3d, have got award here and at other sites, my work was included at the first 3D Expose, but now my last work was rejected here today. Very funny) Something wrong here. And me too seen a lot not too strong images at the 3d still gallery here.

Best regards,
Anatoliy Meymuhin
__________________
Personal webpage: http://www.3dluvr.com/fantasy3d/main.html

leigh
03-26-2012, 02:00 PM
Anatoliy, I'm sorry that you feel disappointed by the recent decisions, however standards have changed over the years. If you're referring to your image of the Greek soldier which was rejected - I can see many issues with this image, both technical and creative. I would recommend you do as the rejection message you received suggested, and post it in the WIP forum for advice.

Anatoliy
03-27-2012, 08:51 AM
Anatoliy, I'm sorry that you feel disappointed by the recent decisions, however standards have changed over the years. If you're referring to your image of the Greek soldier which was rejected - I can see many issues with this image, both technical and creative. I would recommend you do as the rejection message you received suggested, and post it in the WIP forum for advice.

yes, I'm talking about that. Interesting to see that issues. Really. Post here, please. And are u really think that f.e. that works (just a couples with characters) are better technical and creative? http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=1040783 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=1040958 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=1041353

Best regards,
Anatoliy Meymuhin
__________________
Personal webpage: http://www.3dluvr.com/fantasy3d/main.html

leigh
03-27-2012, 11:08 AM
Frankly I don't think particularly highly of any of the examples you posted, but I'm not the only person who deals with gallery submissions, as I mentioned above.

I'll post a critique of your work when I have some more time.

Anatoliy
03-27-2012, 11:42 AM
Ok, waiting. And a few words to save ur time:
1. Image has illustration stylization
2. Of course I know about 2 point lights for character and one light-sunlight for that environment
3. Armor exist not from cloth only - they put cooper behind it or made a layered armor from flax, thats why the pose isnt too relaxed

And here is Zbrush screenshot http://www.3dluvr.com/fantasy3d/War_01ZB.jpg

metrocubicodigital
03-27-2012, 03:34 PM
I'll post a critique of your work when I have some more time.

Honestly I feel exactly like Anatoliy but inside the arch viz field.

If you doing something for him, you should post about me too tbh.
Different works but still exactly the same problem.

Best r,

metrocubicodigital
04-09-2012, 04:34 PM
Is this what you call quality, good concept, and creativity in arch viz??????

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=1044736

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=1044699

Please!

You better just decline all arch viz and only accept those that are really remarkable, because looking at some of the arch viz that are accepted like above... you dont have any rule.

vkiuru
04-11-2012, 04:53 AM
Came by this thread by chance and wanted to chime in. While I think itīs not tactful and in good taste to post "inferior" work to prove the point that your work should be in the gallery, there is a definite inconsistency to the panel process and frankly, Leigh, mods shouldnīt hide behind it like itīs some kind of a flawless democratic masterpiece. At least get a guy or two in there who have some kind of architectural background because at current this is far from being a credible system.

ThE_JacO
04-12-2012, 02:39 AM
Came by this thread by chance and wanted to chime in. While I think itīs not tactful and in good taste to post "inferior" work to prove the point that your work should be in the gallery, there is a definite inconsistency to the panel process and frankly, Leigh, mods shouldnīt hide behind it like itīs some kind of a flawless democratic masterpiece. At least get a guy or two in there who have some kind of architectural background because at current this is far from being a credible system.

I'm not part of the panel, so rather unbiased, and I got to say when things were popularity based, people complained it was exploitable and buttbuddying, when Leigh was single handedly forking out dozens of hours a week doing it herself for the sake of consistency and expediency, people complained it was dictatorial and unilateral, when the standards were loosened people complained about the crap in the gallery, when they were hardened they complained about how hard it was to get in it, now a panel has been finally introduced people complain about inconsistency...
And honestly, who tells you there are no architects or designers in that panel?

I don't see anybody hiding behind any excuses. There's a difference between explaining and blame shifting, Leigh has done the former, politely, multiple times.

Seriously, there really is no winning this one.
If the panel and number of votes required for a pass was to be extended, or the weights changed, people would complain about slow trickle and even more inconsistency harder than they are complaining about the latest trend.

The site has literally tried every possible solution at this point, none of them is perfect, the current one seems to be working for the majority of people. It's only a few self-righteous hurt egos that seem unable to get off the high horse and unsaddle it to be honest, the popular response has been overwhelmingly positive as far as I know. Just people who're happy seldom post the same thread every few days, the 4 or 5 unhappy people (out of half million accounts) normally do that ;)

metrocubicodigital
04-12-2012, 02:20 PM
Its so wierd to have my work being published in 3DArtist and 3DCreative magazines, win award prices in other sites and in this site its gets rejected! Yeh right, the problem is my work...

Sad, this site aint never going to understand Arch Viz, I guess itīs because most mods are from US and Australia? Get some more mods from Europe with Arch viz background and you will see the difference. You know there are many Architects and Designers with bad taste, right?

If you think itīs just 4 or 5 people who are unhappy you soooo wrong.

All arch viz artists I talk to, say how amateur this site is in which concerns architecture. You simply donīt know whatīs good architecture and the simple and crude visualization of it. If you look at your gallery 95% is monsters, faces or concepts. I have nothing against such great works, but itīs unbalanced if you think that arch viz takes so much of the 3d market, and you simply fail to attract great arch viz works that are made out there, which are posted and awarded in other better dedicated arch viz sites. And Im not talking about my work.

ThE_JacO
04-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Actually I think the majority of the active mods are European, me , Kirt, Wiro, Thirdeye (who is an architect btw), Sthalberg, Kanga and quite a few others. Leigh is south African, Lunatique is Chinese, Sheep is Turkish (I think)... All in all most of the active mods aren't American, and most of the panel isn't either.
Only the admin staff is Australian, and maybe Kanga by birth,because the actual ownership is Australian, but they aren't part of the panel.

Not that it has any bearing, but just to show how your hurt ego is clearly clouding your judgment.

In the whole discussion the quality of the work hasn't been mentioned anyway, we've just been politely explaining what the system is like, and why it will occasionally be off the mark, butagain, you seem to have elected to be bratty and indignant about it, so you probably don't realise how inadequate and silly your little nationalist rant is.

metrocubicodigital
04-12-2012, 03:29 PM
Yes I must agree with you. My nationalism rant is inadequate and has nothing to do with the discussion. Sorry for that.

Im not a stupid arrogant or racist, as you might think when i get a bit of my mind.
You may think that Im defending my ego but I am not. I have enough ego already. Im trying to defend arch viz here. Not just mine, but so many other great arch viz artists that you just donīt have it here. You throw some away, and others you just dont attract.

So perhaps you can answer some question so we can understand whatīs different in your system in which concerns arch viz, compared to other dedicated 3d sites.

Is ThirdEye the only Architect?

Does he have an architecture or arch viz portfolio?

How many of the mods that judge the gallery submission makes commercial or personal arch viz?

What experience do you all have related to architecture and arch viz?

If you prove me that you all have good architecture/design and/ or arch viz background then I and others 4 or 5 are totally wrong.

Kirt
04-12-2012, 04:45 PM
Is it a requirement to have an architectural degree or background now to judge an image on its merits of composition, aesthetics, lighting, or design? By that definition, is a degree in biology required to be a proper judge of character illustration or a degree in engineering is required to judge vehicle designs? Your argument is flawed and I think you're approaching this wrong.

We are not required to "prove" anything to you. CGTalk is a globally managed form and the geographic location of Forum Leaders has no relevance on the judging process. We have explained the process and JacO has provided a insightful history as to the many methods of judging that we have tried in the past to appease the membership here. We have settled on this method for the time being and are finding that the system to be favored among most people who are submitting work. We realize there can be flaws, but there is no way that a system can be devised to please everyone equally. If you have a suggestion to improve the system (other than, "approve all my work because it's approved elsewhere"), we'd love to hear what you have in mind. The system has evolved several times and I suspect that this latest system won't be the last.

Your work's acceptance on other sites, the awards your receive elsewhere, or comparison to accepted works on this site have no bearing on the individual work's judging process. Each piece is reviewed by industry professionals with years of experience and accolades in the industry of and various fields of CG art. Each piece is reviewed individually with no comparison to other work from yourself or other artists. If your image is not accepted, then your option is to post in the WIP forum to possibly get some info on how to improve the piece or to submit something else for review.

leigh
04-12-2012, 05:37 PM
One doesn't need to be an architect to appreciate the beauty of architecture, yet you appear to be convinced of the opposite, which is frankly a bit silly. An appreciation of artistic aesthetic is not limited to subject genres in the eye of someone who appreciates art generally. Is the fact that you assume this to be the case indicative perhaps of your own narrow scope for appreciation? It's common to assume that others think in the same way that you do; I've mentioned before many times on this site that an appreciation for the skill of a piece of work is quite separate to your personal taste, which is why I frequently vote in favour of work that I don't personally like, yet absolutely appreciate the skill and beauty of, regardless. Kinda like how Brad Pitt isn't really my type, but I can still appreciate the fact that he's good looking.

I've stated again and again that I am fully aware of the inconsistencies in the work being accepted in the gallery, so the accusation of "hiding behind" excuses on the previous page is absolutely absurd. The fact is that the general consensus amongst the users here is that they wanted a panel to judge the work; one of the inevitable and unavoidable aspects of having a panel of judges is inconsistency. Yes, frankly I think some of the stuff that gets into the gallery is crap. And yes, I think a lot of decent work gets rejected. But hey, that's democracy for you - you don't always end up getting what you want. When I did all the validation myself, things were far more consistent but we changed to the current system because that's what people wanted.

metrocubicodigital
04-12-2012, 06:48 PM
Thanks for the words. Much clear now for me.

The only suggestion I could think of is why not have a subdivision forum in the 3d gallery? All the good & bad work that is submitted goes directly to there (is possible to view, comment and vote by everyone).

All the work that is voted high and accepted by mods jumps after to the main 3d gallery.

As mentioned, in each work that is posted it could be great if each member could vote "like" or something.

It would also help you judge what works should go forward or not. Perhaps if a work gets 15 likes it automatically is accepted into the 3d gallery.

I honestly believe that pehaps you would win more if you could give the members opinion/voting powers, since you will pass to them a bit of the weight you have in your shoulders at the moment.

Kirt
04-12-2012, 08:53 PM
What you just suggested is similar to the structure we had here 8 years ago. There was a forum where everything was accepted that was submitted (the Gallery) and users could rate work on a scale of 1 to 5 stars. The forum could be sorted by this star rating system and/or the number of comments posted in the thread. This was used to determine the popularity of an image. From these popular threads, Admins would award CGChoice awards and move them to the CGChoice Gallery.

The problem with this type of system is that members would (and did) game the rating system by using multiple accounts to rate their threads highly while rating other's threads poorly. Popular artists or someone who's already earned a CGChoice award (with a fanbase) would quickly gain very highly rated threads by the number of visitors, comments, and participating votes than a new artist would simply because it has already been established that they have the skills. This would put the new artists at a huge disadvantage when competing for thread views and ratings.

It's good that you've made a suggestion and we appreciate that, but keep in mind that the forums have been around for over 10 years now. We've tried several things in the past and have had these discussions more times than can be remembered. So, please understand our frustration a bit when it is suggested that the systems we have in place seem hastily put together, are biased toward certain groups, or seem totalitarian in nature. There is so much work that is done behind the scenes that I don't think the average member here is even aware of the scope of things done to keep CGTalk running. On the surface, I'm sure it may look chaotic or arbitrary, but I assure you that it is not the case. There is a great team of people that work here who genuinely care about every aspect of how the site functions.

ThE_JacO
04-13-2012, 12:50 AM
Thanks for the words. Much clear now for me.
Well, in first place, good job cooling down and going back to the actual topic. It does you credit that you decided to turn it around and discuss it maturely instead of making it a rowing argument.

Nobody was really saying your work wasn't worthy or below the standards of the ones you posted.
You can take the fact we were explaining why these things happen as a statement to the opposite probably, hopefully reading back you see that as well now.

The only suggestion I could think of is why not have a subdivision forum in the 3d gallery? All the good & bad work that is submitted goes directly to there (is possible to view, comment and vote by everyone).

All the work that is voted high and accepted by mods jumps after to the main 3d gallery.

As mentioned, in each work that is posted it could be great if each member could vote "like" or something.

It would also help you judge what works should go forward or not. Perhaps if a work gets 15 likes it automatically is accepted into the 3d gallery.

I honestly believe that pehaps you would win more if you could give the members opinion/voting powers, since you will pass to them a bit of the weight you have in your shoulders at the moment.
At this point Kirt picked it up well and said most of what I wanted or could.

I know what you're saying makes sense to you. In fact, it made sense to us as well, it was the way this site worked initially, and the way we tried to go back to several times with several variations on the theme.
The problem is that no amount of bolting on filters, heuristics, procedures or anything could work around the only flaw in that plan: Human nature and crowd mentality.

It's just too easy to abuse, and too hard to regulate.

As Kirt says, it's nice that people suggest changes and improvments, please don't think they go unlistened to or ignored, many things that made this site successful are the result of listening to the userbase.

That said, we have one thing that most users have no access to or memory of. We know and remember everything we did and why throughout the history of the site.
While certain ideas are great in theory, and were tried for that, often the reality of things is very different, much like most things in life :)

See my first post about what we tried, and why it seems we can't please everybody.
We tried purely popular, it was exploited blatantly, and even introducing rules to filter IPs and so on people would work around.
When the gallery's most coveted first page can be taken over by just one or two individuals exploiting the system, and there are many more than that, just two assholes are enough to prevent us from using the system. You have no idea to what lengths some psychopaths went in those regards (we're talking people making dozens of accounts replying to their own threads and going as far as logging those account from different places and IPs to make it look legit, God knows how many hours of their day they spent feeding that weird fantastical loop in their brain for the sake of recognition).

We tried mixed popular and filtered, and it suffered from a mix of the above AND really odd userbase response, the gallery never looked worse than it did then.

We would love a larger, more specialised cataloguing system, but automation is impossible. Believe it or not people seem to often not even bother entering titles for their submissions, imagine how many would actually use a metatagging system.

We would love a larger panel with a higher number of votes required to pass or bounce things, but finding people who are willing to invest the time it takes to be part of that panel is very hard, almost impossible.
Even with paid positions most people simply won't do it, or if they would they wouldn't do it attentively and often enough.

We're far from perfect, so is the system, but you have to give us a little bit of trust that we constantly input into the site's admins and owners to try and make things better, and our decisions are as informed as we can make them.
It might not be that obvious, but have a look at what most of us do for a living (IE: most of us don't get anything out of this site, we're pretty much all established professionals who hardly need the exposure, let alone the forum hate :P ), and then compare it to the number and contents of our posts.
Add to that the work you don't see, such as validating hundreds of posts in the que everyday, discussing features and contests, dealing with spammers smarter than filters can be, moving and organising dozens of threads every week that were in the wrong place, talking to the admins, dealing with the hate mail, the PMs, and remember we all do this for free. Do you think we'd do that if we didn't care about the site or the users? Give us a little bit of credit there ;)

metrocubicodigital
04-13-2012, 09:31 AM
Hey guys you talking to someone who was Global Administrator of the biggest RTS site on the net, who organized RTS tournaments worth 1 million dollar (prices). I actually coded and updated portals, organized, moderated forums and had to be at the same time pro at the game. Believe me when i say this, I truly know how hard it is to work for a site for free and just for the love of it. I did it for 4 straight years and at the end i was so exausted. I reached 18,000 posts there lol - www.gamereplays.org

I honestly think you right. People do abuse the system like hell, like there was no tomorrow. Maybe this is better than the previous system, only time will tell.

Ill think of other things. Maybe ill be hit by a lightning and have a genious idea for cgtalk :P

Best regards and thkx.

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