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bazuka
03-27-2012, 08:32 PM
question is why max has everything and maya doesnt have a s***.....

THExDUKE
03-27-2012, 08:34 PM
I think we should at least wait for a full feature list. THIS cant be the featurelist for 2013. I dont want to belive that.

inkblack
03-27-2012, 08:37 PM
Hehe yeah...where are the (alias?) times where you would be excited to have a new version?

It would be nice if autodesk would beclear about the future plans of all products....though that will never happen.....

oglu
03-27-2012, 08:40 PM
It would be nice if autodesk would beclear about the future plans of all products....though that will never happen.....

if you read between the lines...
you clearly see maya is aiming for big animation studios...
max for anything else...

SePu
03-27-2012, 08:43 PM
I know is very poor what they are doing with Maya 2013 ...but I want to wait I see ... before I go all out... I mean this can't be what we have for 2013 you gotta be joking ... I mean half of the Dynamics video is from SAP nothing new ... the node editor is the same as before nothing new there ... so far very disappointed

inkblack
03-27-2012, 08:43 PM
Yeah. Well too bad im not at a big studio.....

At what time should one switch? All the time you have invested :curious:

THExDUKE
03-27-2012, 08:46 PM
Oh gosh...these ARE the Keyfeatures oO

http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/features/

inkblack
03-27-2012, 08:49 PM
Isnt that from 2012 still?

matzerium
03-27-2012, 08:50 PM
hmmm...looks like the "wishlist" ;)

fghajhe
03-27-2012, 08:54 PM
Not too many *new* features. Maybe they really did mostly focus on bugs/ stability.

SePu
03-27-2012, 08:54 PM
most of this stuff are from SAP besides nHair, Graph editor adds on, and small stuff ... I cant believe this .... very F frustrated with this ....

THExDUKE
03-27-2012, 08:59 PM
if you read between the lines...
you clearly see maya is aiming for big animation studios...
max for anything else...

to be honest, i thought this with the 2012 release already. but now it gets more obvious.

hanskloss
03-27-2012, 08:59 PM
I was going to build a pipeline at work with 12 seats of Maya, but now I have to rethink this strategy...I mean, really?...

doffer
03-27-2012, 09:02 PM
Where do you guys see the feature list?
Any link?

All I can see is a feature list from maya 2012

THExDUKE
03-27-2012, 09:02 PM
I was going to build a pipeline at work with 12 seats of Maya, but now I have to rethink this strategy...I mean, really?...

Not sure what our strategy will be for the future.

oglu
03-27-2012, 09:04 PM
but there is also a lot of stuff going on for smaller "animation" studios... alembic, the HIK updates, TRAX updates, the new ATOM and file referencing in the outliner...

Clappy3D
03-27-2012, 09:15 PM
This is right up there with the Maya 2010 release on the "wall of mediocrity".

stooch
03-27-2012, 09:21 PM
im extremely happy to see the new node editor. thats a huge wish item that has been checked off my list.

SebKaine
03-27-2012, 09:34 PM
well i'm pretty sure that maya 2013 is now rock solid, and will be extremely stable, we won't see in the coming month :
- hotfix 1
- hotfix 2
- hotfix 3
- sp1
- sp2 to get a stable product,

cause as far as AD don't do s*** for the 2013 edition the only explanation for me is that :
-> they focus on bug correction

But if we see those hotfixes ... my conclusion would be :
-> well lets try to sell 2012 sap with some make up and see how things evolve ? after all maybe we could try for the maya 2014 edition to modify the splash screen and ask for more buck for that ? who knows this could work after all ...

And for all the guys that feel really disapointed , if you want to put some shine in your CG life , check the Softimage Updates ... Thats really a shame XSI was really one of the best package out there ....

Dimitri > if you like the new node editor you can buy the 2012.5 release as it is already there.

rBrady
03-27-2012, 09:47 PM
There arn't many bells and whistles in this release. So now we just have to see whats under the hood. We waited till 2012 SP1 to upgrade from 2011 and it was still too buggy. SP2 is pretty good. I am hoping that this release will be what I have always wanted. Less flash, more foundation. Only time will tell if that's the case.

A feature rich 2013 that has a bunch of bugs is a downgrade in my opinion.

yog
03-27-2012, 09:51 PM
And for all the guys that feel really disapointed , if you want to put some shine in your CG life , check the Softimage Updates ... Thats really a shame XSI was really one of the best package out there ....

Too true.

I really used to love using Softimage, but I can't imagine my disapointment, if there were only about 5 improvements were listed for my subscription costs covering a whole year ... and one of those "improvements" was listed as extra sample scenes ???? :rolleyes:

Horganovski
03-27-2012, 09:59 PM
Well I'm going to take an unfashionable stance here I guess.

I'm pretty stoked by new hair system, graph re-timing tool is nice, heat weighting will save me a lot of time, trax updates will definitely be handy too. VP2 improvements are welcome.

So for me it's a nice update and I have nothing to grumble about. Sure I already had the Node Editor and Alembic but I'd guess it's quite likely that both of those have had tweaks since the SAP version.

Cheers,
Brian

habernir
03-27-2012, 10:05 PM
very disappointed . the Features list of maya 2013 its a joke a bad joke.
all the power that autodesk have and this is what they manage to develop?

DuttyFoot
03-27-2012, 10:09 PM
its possible that a lot of bug fixing was done for this release which means next years release will have more of what the people want :)

tonytrout
03-27-2012, 10:34 PM
From possibly the smallest user in the world I think Im going to be pretty happy with the nhair. Looks like theres quite a lot of possibilities with the volume retention from self collision and constraints to style and groom hair for static shots and add some rigging for dynamic control

sentry66
03-27-2012, 10:37 PM
so, the base price now is $5000, but includes mudbox, sketchbook designer, while ditching composite?
http://usa.autodesk.com/autodesk-entertainment-creation-suite/compare/

Though according to this link, prices start at $5500
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=16604482

So wow, the price really is starting to jump up now and getting really hard to justify ever upgrading again.

Sucks if you use zbrush. I guess this is their way of competing with them is to force you to pay for it.


I'm yawning at the highlighted new features.
I'll have to look at the final what's new pdf, but looks like I'm going to skip this upgrade yet again and stick with 2009 even longer.

I've used 2012 and I do really like it, but can't justify its price to upgrade everyone's machine. Especially when the price is increasing and I have to make the call on whether to buy either new hardware or new software. New hardware, NEVER lets me down. It always makes everyone more productive.


Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the maya team has worked hard and pulled off some awesome stuff. These features in particular just don't really help my line of work much.

Hamburger
03-27-2012, 10:37 PM
Is VP2 still not default? Surely after 3 years of development..... :sad:

Oh well, some nice improvements in there nonetheless. Will be interesting to see the full list and bug fix list.

Hans-CC
03-27-2012, 11:07 PM
Do Any one has more info on nhair ? i was specting this for a long time but i don't see any tools like the comb tool of shave haircut !!

i hope it doest be a disappoint !!

h.

republicavfx
03-27-2012, 11:08 PM
some interesting updates...a bit disappointed we didnt get the nodey mograph grooming thing.....but the human ik stuff and nhair seems significant.....

still...future looks like its spelled with an 'H'

just tried out the cuda fluids in houdini....holy crap...fast fast simulations

tonytrout
03-27-2012, 11:18 PM
So wow, the price really is starting to jump up now and getting really hard to justify ever upgrading again.

Its costing me about $1500 (depending on exchange rate) a year currently on subscription for mudbox and maya. I wasted a lot of money on buying some individual copies of mudbox initially until the light went on. It locks me in, and the upgrades vary year to year, but progressively there are good features added, for instance I would never revert to mudbox 2009. I accept that the changes seeem less dramatic in Maya but its nice to have the latest features and bug fixes if you need them.

sentry66
03-27-2012, 11:27 PM
Its costing me about $1500 (depending on exchange rate) a year currently on subscription for mudbox and maya. I wasted a lot of money on buying some individual copies of mudbox initially until the light went on. It locks me in, and the upgrades vary year to year, but progressively there are good features added, for instance I would never revert to mudbox 2009. I accept that the changes seeem less dramatic in Maya but its nice to have the latest features and bug fixes if you need them.


Yeah I know. I stopped doing the subscription thing because I ran into too many bugs with each release.

We were essentially paying for broken software updates that we couldn't even use half the time.

Decided it was better for us to find a worthwhile upgrade that was solid and just upgrade to it and be done with it for a few years.

Other programs aren't as expensive so aren't really much concern.

Kabab
03-28-2012, 12:28 AM
Surely it's clear now that spending money with Autodesk is a waste of time..

There are some really nice options out there now days :)

cgbeige
03-28-2012, 02:10 AM
Wait - where does it say you can't buy Maya without the suite? I don't think that's the case, especially since you can't get motionbuilder on OS X or Linux. And I don't think u can get Sketchbook designer for Linux

Hamburger
03-28-2012, 02:13 AM
I don't think it does, it's just the suite he was linking to earlier.

http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/how-to-buy/

Maya can be purchased separately it seems - at least I know that I'm only paying for Maya only on sub.

petey
03-28-2012, 02:20 AM
I think people are being a bit harsh. These videos better explain the new features.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbTgr95Z8nk - Workflow improvements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeWisUaz3bE - Dynamics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV51sFi5aV4 - Human IK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FyhaxNf9QY - Animation Transfer

I'd like to see more rendering improvements. I was holding out on buying MentalCore to see what they did, but as there's not much I might just grab it. That or V-ray =)

sentry66
03-28-2012, 02:21 AM
So where can you purchase maya by itself?

petey
03-28-2012, 02:39 AM
1.5 What will be the price for each Media & Entertainment 2013 3D software product
(standalone license)?

 Maya 2013: The price is US $3,495.00 MSRP*

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/2013_media_and_entertainment_3d_frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

Hamburger
03-28-2012, 02:41 AM
Yeah, it's under the link I posted a couple of posts back:

http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/how-to-buy/

THrough a resseller @$3,495.00

DuttyFoot
03-28-2012, 03:01 AM
so, the base price now is $5000, but includes mudbox, sketchbook designer, while ditching composite?
http://usa.autodesk.com/autodesk-en...-suite/compare/ (http://usa.autodesk.com/autodesk-entertainment-creation-suite/compare/)

i didn't realize there was a ultimate version that cost over 7k dollars which has both maya and max along with everything else

Stellios
03-28-2012, 03:10 AM
Im happy with the release. The node editor looks slick and Im optimistic on its future. nHair looks great although i was hoping that there would be a grooming system condusive to a fibermesh workflow. A small list of features, but overall i can see how a couple of them will really speed up the job.

Hamburger
03-28-2012, 03:57 AM
@ Stellios - yeah the node editor is fantastic to use - it's extremely fast with swatches and stable, however the only negative thing (in my view only) is that it doesn't drag and drop things a lot of the time like the Hypershade did. There are also a few little quirks with it...I'm not sure on how its improved though over the last 5 or so months - I thought it to be pretty much final back when it was released with SAP.

On another note, I think if we have to look at Maya 2013 as the public beta. In my view its always been this kind of cycle, Maya 2012 was a public beta, a couple of service packs and hot-fixes later it becomes the final release....and the 2012 Subscription Advantage packs becomes 2013's Alpha release. If we all look at it that way it makes a lot of sense to why there are not stacks of new features I guess....the names don't add up and it's kind of lagged out but the pattern is there.

Has 2013 been officially announced yet? I guess if not it'll be either tomorrow or the end of the week at latest I guess.

DuttyFoot
03-28-2012, 04:39 AM
Has 2013 been officially announced yet? I guess if not it'll be either tomorrow or the end of the week at latest I guess.

maybe that's what the virtual event on the 29th is for.

hanskloss
03-28-2012, 05:00 AM
Maya is clearly going for animation. Can't make it any more obvious than it has already been made. Animation tools are becoming more and more robust and user friendly, great.:thumbsup: nHair great, although I agree with Stelios and a few other here that Hair in Maya is begging for some kind of civilized grooming/combing option. I mean get with the program already. Has anyone at ADSK tried using Yeti for Maya???? Heloooooo...:rolleyes:

Since I am a modeling/UV/texturing and rendering guy this release stinks, with the exception of VP2 enhancements and node editor...I may try heat skinning from time to time, but that's it :)...I think ADSK should just state the obvious: modeling in Maya will never be addressed, because 3ds max already has what modelers need. Maya is the choice for animators and FX artists. Instead of giving users incremental "bugger off" modeling tools, stop developing them altogether. Save yourselves as developers from pointless explanations and save us users from bitching. It's just another tool I know, I know :) Carry on...:thumbsup:

sdserbos
03-28-2012, 05:05 AM
Will Maya 2013 have reliable MayaFluids re-timing (slow motion) while maintaining the exact look of the un-retimed fluid?

mr Bob
03-28-2012, 06:03 AM
Will Maya 2013 have reliable MayaFluids re-timing (slow motion) while maintaining the exact look of the un-retimed fluid?

If you mean like Houdini Id say the odds are slim

dagon1978
03-28-2012, 08:39 AM
so, i dont know really what to say, im shocked, that´s the only think i can think
maybe i should search for my rants about maya 2008, 2009, 2010 or 2011 an copy/past exactly the same message, that would work, but i dont want to repeat myself over and over again, is frustrating and i think is not even useful, cause is clear now that nobody at adsk would care

just to tell you how WRONG you´re dealing with rendering stuff, i was about to cry (but actually i laugh) when you show this "powerfull" ramp example for the car paint
i mean, is that a joke or what?
is that something you really think we should care in 2012?? really?
is it at least been optimized (i mean the ramp and layered shaders) for mental ray or it´s still fully optimized for this moder renderer named maya software?
how about to use some MODERN shaders instead of those crap coming from the 80´?
i mean you show how good it is the VP2 and you use area light WITHOUT decay? there is still someone using those old-school tricks for crappy renderings? pfff
please guys, stop living in the past and start realizing we are in 2012, really

THExDUKE
03-28-2012, 08:54 AM
On another note, I think if we have to look at Maya 2013 as the public beta. In my view its always been this kind of cycle, Maya 2012 was a public beta, a couple of service packs and hot-fixes later it becomes the final release....and the 2012 Subscription Advantage packs becomes 2013's Alpha release. If we all look at it that way it makes a lot of sense to why there are not stacks of new features I guess....the names don't add up and it's kind of lagged out but the pattern is there.

Has 2013 been officially announced yet? I guess if not it'll be either tomorrow or the end of the week at latest I guess.

Im a friend of analogys and one favorite is cars...so lets see this theory with cars:

A car company brings out every year a new car, but its not done, and some features, like some basic control control things, maybe a wiper, or a headlight, are missing. but there would be some workarounds, like some holes in the window, for getting your hand out with a flashlight, or a little wet cloth for cleaning the windows.
Plus, the car isnt really running well, the engine is running twitchy and once in a while, maybe even a couple of times a day, you need to get towed, cause the engine doesnt run.
But after a couple of month dealing with the car you have bought, because the exteriour looks soo cool, you´ll get an update...like a rear spoiler or something...maybe one or two alloy´s...and a new spark plug...which makes the car run a bit better.. but still..it is not the thing you have expected. Cause there are cars out there, which have wipers, and headlights, and a horn..yeah, ok...you have a v8 with 500bhp under the hood...but actually its running only on 3.5 cylinders at 2343 rpm.
But a year later...there´s a even better car introduced...v9 550 bhp, with a horn. And since you are in a leasing contract, you get botherd by the sales guy to update otherwise youll get no support on your old car anymore.


:curious:

3Dmonkey
03-28-2012, 10:15 AM
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/announcing_maya_2013

darkjedi1929
03-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Why oh why in God's name would you want to edit a referenced animation curve? It was such a beautifully simple way of locking down animation on a referenced object. Now we will have to start jumping through hoops to actually get that "feature" out of the system. Who was the genius who recommended this anyway?

eikonoklastes
03-28-2012, 10:43 AM
Don't worry guys. The good news is that mental-ray is now implemented as a "true plug-in". Considering it was released as a plug-in for Maya 4.5 (what we now know to be a fake), we can finally look forward to its proper implementation within Maya by 2018 latest.

Also, the extrude tool has been improved. A bit.

Ok, enough of that. Apparently, there are some new BSDF shaders for mr. Not sure what they do though.

I didn't think a new Maya release would ever leave me a bit depressed, but they found a way.

mustique
03-28-2012, 11:45 AM
It's not that the new features are useless but those are the type of free 0.1 feature updates you get with Pixologic, Thefoundry and Side Effects.

Now that every effects studio with a litlle bit of common sense switches to Houdini, adsk should watch out. Because asset creation is better handled in other apps for a while, and all there really is to maya in a pipeline these days is "animation".

As soon as someone comes along with a revolutionary new animation tool concept, there will be no need for maya in a serious production environment. And at that point Maya might have evolved into a tool that is too complicated to learn/use/struggle with for smaller shops and freelancers too.

dagon1978
03-28-2012, 12:09 PM
Ok, enough of that. Apparently, there are some new BSDF shaders for mr. Not sure what they do though.

I didn't think a new Maya release would ever leave me a bit depressed, but they found a way.

do you have a link for the release notes?
i´ll start to think how to use the hidden features here at work

sdserbos
03-28-2012, 12:20 PM
Including a trial version of Blender in the SAP version would be nice.

Arce
03-28-2012, 12:45 PM
Another version and same old news ....

MM Really? pfff get tired of maya ... Started whit version alismaya6 and waiting for good updates.... and come whit this? pff ... for me today its the moment for change to another 3d software bye maya

eikonoklastes
03-28-2012, 12:59 PM
do you have a link for the release notes?
i´ll start to think how to use the hidden features here at work
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/announcing_maya_2013

That, I think, covers most of the new features in detail.

Hamburger
03-28-2012, 12:59 PM
I can't find a full list for the updates, but is this it so far? (Minus SAP features)?

- nHair module
- Added support for ramp shader, area lights and new transparency algorithm in Viewport 2.0
- new Heat Map Skinning method
- Trax Clip Matching
- Added export ATOM Animation Transfer plugin

Edit: Ah, thanks eikonoklastes!

dagon1978
03-28-2012, 01:08 PM
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/announcing_maya_2013

That, I think, covers most of the new features in detail.

yes, thanx, i got it ;)

New mental ray BSDF shaders: Built in BSDF (bidirectional scattering distribution function) shaders from NVIDIA mental images are now exposed in Maya. You can find them by selecting Window > Rendering Editors > Hypershade > mental ray > Materials.

uuuh so exited! :cry: i mean, that´s something that was aroung since 2 years maybe? is that really all for mray? hopefully they will work with VP2.0, but im not really trustful that everything will work without headaches

oglu
03-28-2012, 01:11 PM
mib_ptex_lookup1 :D

VanDerGoes
03-28-2012, 01:49 PM
if VP 2.0 doesn't support gamma corrected textures and swatches, it's useless as a rendering preview.

m0z
03-28-2012, 01:53 PM
mib_ptex_lookup1 :D

schmäh? :beer:

yay gamma corrrection works... still no nparticles and instancer eh?

oglu
03-28-2012, 01:54 PM
supported Utilities nodes:

Multiply Divide
Rgb To Hsv
Hsv To Rgb
Reverse
Blend Colors
Luminance
(new) Gamma Correct

dagon1978
03-28-2012, 02:03 PM
supported Utilities nodes:

Multiply Divide
Rgb To Hsv
Hsv To Rgb
Reverse
Blend Colors
Luminance
(new) Gamma Correct


Remap Color?
Ok, it was too much sorry :P

THExDUKE
03-28-2012, 02:03 PM
Does it work with mental Ray shaders?

claydough
03-28-2012, 02:09 PM
http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/announcing_maya_2013

Now that Maya 2013 has been announced:

Does anyone know if project Skyline actually made it into Maya in any form yet?

oglu
03-28-2012, 02:12 PM
project skyline is a seperat project... not a maya one...

Gloor
03-28-2012, 02:25 PM
Ok, now that Maya 2013 is announced can beta testers tell us a bit more from their testing or are they still under NDA? It would be nice to get some info from those that had the chance to test it for the last few months.
So, anyone please?

royter
03-28-2012, 02:47 PM
Any words on the Mental Ray integration? haven't read any line mentioning the subject:
http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/features/

cgbeige
03-28-2012, 03:29 PM
Ok, now that Maya 2013 is announced can beta testers tell us a bit more from their testing or are they still under NDA? It would be nice to get some info from those that had the chance to test it for the last few months.
So, anyone please?

there's not much to say since all the features have been covered by the announcement. There are tons of bug fixes that were made but I can't post those.

Other than that, I don't think you'll be wowwed by mental ray integration but I never use it anymore.

Gloor
03-28-2012, 03:40 PM
Thank you Dave, thats nice to hear. Stability is important. Lets hope they also improved the use of multicore machines :))))


there's not much to say since all the features have been covered by the announcement. There are tons of bug fixes that were made but I can't post those.

Other than that, I don't think you'll be wowwed by mental ray integration but I never use it anymore.

cgbeige
03-28-2012, 04:01 PM
I don't think it's been mentioned in the announcement but Artisan sculpting and paint weights got a big speed bump in 2013. It's a noticeable improvement. This might be included in 2012 SP2/SAP SP1 though.

I think a lot of people are disappointed because SAP gave a lot of stuff away in the interest of drawing subscribers but for non-subscribers it's a much bigger update from Maya 2012. Just Bullet physics alone is worth the cost. It's retardedly fast:

https://vimeo.com/32710925

skip to the end.

Bitter
03-28-2012, 04:50 PM
mental ray integration is an ongoing process. However, the biggest part of that looks completed.

They mention mental ray has been separated as a plug-in and hooks have been changed. This means it's easier for all renderers (including mental ray) to be updated and replaced without the additional mess.

sacslacker
03-28-2012, 05:50 PM
Any idea when this is available to people on subs? I'm patiently waiting but I haven't seen a date and I'd like to stop checking my subscription site. =)

edit: Ah, April 12 - Thank you!

goldnode
03-28-2012, 08:38 PM
Any idea when this is available to people on subs? I'm patiently waiting but I haven't seen a date and I'd like to stop checking my subscription site. =)

12th April I read somewhere today, can't find it now though! Had spent the last 2 days clicking "reload" on the download page.

goldnode
03-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Any idea when this is available to people on subs? I'm patiently waiting but I haven't seen a date and I'd like to stop checking my subscription site. =)

12th April:

http://images.autodesk.com/emea_nw_w_main/files/2013_media_and_entertainment_3d_frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

alexentremont
03-28-2012, 09:40 PM
From the FAQ (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/2013_media_and_entertainment_3d_frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf) : "Media & Entertainment 2013 3D release downloads for Autodesk® Subscription customers are expected to be available on or after April 12, 2012."

Samuka3000
03-29-2012, 12:38 AM
Maya is clearly going for animation. Can't make it any more obvious than it has already been made. Animation tools are becoming more and more robust and user friendly, great.:thumbsup: nHair great, although I agree with Stelios and a few other here that Hair in Maya is begging for some kind of civilized grooming/combing option. I mean get with the program already. Has anyone at ADSK tried using Yeti for Maya???? Heloooooo...:rolleyes:

Since I am a modeling/UV/texturing and rendering guy this release stinks, with the exception of VP2 enhancements and node editor...I may try heat skinning from time to time, but that's it :)...I think ADSK should just state the obvious: modeling in Maya will never be addressed, because 3ds max already has what modelers need. Maya is the choice for animators and FX artists. Instead of giving users incremental "bugger off" modeling tools, stop developing them altogether. Save yourselves as developers from pointless explanations and save us users from bitching. It's just another tool I know, I know :) Carry on...:thumbsup:

Unfortunately I believe you said it all... no love for the modeling crowd in this release either.

But I do hope it's fully multithreaded by now. :surprised

InfernalDarkness
03-29-2012, 02:20 AM
Meh, you get what you pay for I guess. So don't. I skipped Maya 2010 and 2011 as there were zero new features I needed for my work. I'm sure subscriptions are cool and all, but unless Maya has rendering-specific updates (mental ray integration) there's nothing I would really need in 2013 or onward, really. 2012 does the job better than 2009 for me, so it was worth upgrading.

This year I'll spend the budget on an Optimus keyboard or something equally preposterous, instead. Not to say that the Maya staff hasn't put a lot of work into 2013 - just not in the direction I need, from what I've seen so far.

But I do hope it's fully multithreaded by now. :surprised

Now that would/could be a good reason to update! It would be nice to have five more cores doing something (updating the dependency graph?) finally, aside from rendering.

Lightweight
03-29-2012, 02:30 AM
It kinda feels like unless you are an animator, the 2013 release is also a shrug-like release, just like the 2012 with the exception of Viewport 2.0.

Still no official iRay support. Nothing new in regards to shaders, especially mia_materials and the compability with scenes. Not a word on new modeling features.


There's not that much info out yet ofc, but if this is all there is, I'm not upgrading. The only thing that excites me is the new node-system/hypershade.

Kabab
03-29-2012, 05:16 AM
Meh, you get what you pay for I guess. So don't. I skipped Maya 2010 and 2011 as there were zero new features I needed for my work. I'm sure subscriptions are cool and all, but unless Maya has rendering-specific updates (mental ray integration) there's nothing I would really need in 2013 or onward, really. 2012 does the job better than 2009 for me, so it was worth upgrading.
You need to remember to if you license gets to far out of date you can't upgrade anymore either :/

:banghead: :banghead:

tonytrout
03-29-2012, 07:17 AM
mib_ptex_lookup1 :D
Great! thanks Oglu, I see Cory Mogk has commented on his blog the implementation is a bit rougher than the Maya team would have liked.

lllcw
03-29-2012, 11:01 AM
Maya is to be more and more motionbuilder like software! Hopefully MR is going to intergrate well with maya,though i'm a vray user now :buttrock:

stallion151
03-29-2012, 11:04 AM
I see Cory Mogk has commented on his blog the implementation is a bit rougher than the Maya team would have liked.
post might of been taken down, because i don't see that

tonytrout
03-29-2012, 11:52 AM
Midway through the second page

hanskloss
03-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Maya is to be more and more motionbuilder like software! Hopefully MR is going to intergrate well with maya,though i'm a vray user now :buttrock:

I don't care about mentalRay integration anymore. For me and many other users that boat has sailed a long time ago. I know of a number of production facilities that have made a full switch to VRay and have not looked back at MR. I am actually in the process of building a full blown rendering and realtime visualization pipeline around VRay/VRay RT at a major automotive company. The Maya users I talked to don't want to hear about mentalRay once I showed them the speed and results you can achieve with VRay.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 03:38 PM
I can still handily outperform Vray for time and quality with mental ray.

The problem is non-exposure of new features means users are still using old methods and deprecated features (like scanline, radius controlled FG, regular adaptive sampling, blinn. . .long list) And then they wonder what's wrong.

Autodesk is allowing legacy concerns to control exposure, which is fine for a lot of large and slower moving customers. But there's much more agility than I think they realize for migration.

I'm not always certain they know what customers want. In fact most large customers will build what they want. It's the smaller customer that relies on integration.

royter
03-29-2012, 04:28 PM
magazines like 3dartist, 3d world, numerous renowned CG sites have already pointed out numerous times, that modeling (with stone age tools)and rendering (with the mental ray integration whitch is almost a prank) in Maya is just a joke.
Now Autodesk knows that very well,they know better than anyone else what needs to be done to make Maya a “complete” 3d software,its their product, but they just don’t want to do it and i guess they have their reasons for that.Maybe they want Maya an animation oriented tool ? maybe making an incomplete software like Maya makes just more turn over for Autodesk in a way or another? i really don’t know the real reasons but they certainly know what they are doing. I Just don’t expect much from Maya when it comes to modeling/rendering.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 04:43 PM
Information on BSDF shaders can be found here:

mental ray BSDF shaders (http://forum.mentalimages.com/showthread.php?7289-BSDF-BRDF-shaders-in-Maya-2011&highlight=BSDF)

mustique
03-29-2012, 04:50 PM
I can still handily outperform Vray for time and quality with mental ray.
....

Then why the hell are those features non-exposed. Maybe they don't give consistent results and are buggy especially when animation is involved and don't play well with render passes or is it just that they are designed for people with a very high mentalray IQ?

VanDerGoes
03-29-2012, 04:52 PM
magazines like 3dartist, 3d world, numerous renowned CG sites have already pointed out numerous times, that modeling (with stone age tools)and rendering (with the mental ray integration whitch is almost a prank) in Maya is just a joke.
Now Autodesk knows that very well,they know better than anyone else what needs to be done to make Maya a “complete” 3d software,its their product, but they just don’t want to do it and i guess they have their reasons for that.Maybe they want Maya an animation oriented tool ? maybe making an incomplete software like Maya makes just more turn over for Autodesk in a way or another? i really don’t know the real reasons but they certainly know what they are doing. I Just don’t expect much from Maya when it comes to modeling/rendering.

They are probably trying to sell the whole suite of 3d software. Is the suggested workflow going back and forth between maya (animation), max(modelling/rendering), mudbox (sculpting) and motionbuilder (mocap) (and sofimage for vfx). Well, I'm old fashion, but if this is the case, I don't find it a very comfortable workflow.
So please, next time, maybe on SAP, some modern modeling tools and a little mental ray integration.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 05:01 PM
Then why the hell are those features non-exposed. Maybe they don't give consistent results and are buggy especially when animation is involved and don't play well with render passes or is it just that they are designed for people with a very high mentalray IQ?

No, for the reasons I described above: legacy consideration for pipelines. Exposing new features while deprecating old ones means migration.

Autodesk has customers that fear migration.

There are customers that rely on certain behavior, if you change that, they are unhappy. This means fixes and changes to features that change how they operate or look are undesirable for customers that need to replicate something years later or want to maintain a pipeline on a specific feature.

The problem is I think they over estimate how important that is and how many customers really know what they want. (Do you really want to live with a specific artifact forever?)

Add to that, there are very VERY few people at Autodesk working on rendering and it compounds the problem.

toho
03-29-2012, 05:16 PM
Information on BSDF shaders can be found here:

mental ray BSDF shaders (http://forum.mentalimages.com/showthread.php?7289-BSDF-BRDF-shaders-in-Maya-2011&highlight=BSDF)

Bitter, can you explain how to plug-in cutout opacity into builtin_bsdf_architectural_comp ?
I am have no luck with it all setting bellow light entry have no effect on result

thanks

mustique
03-29-2012, 05:20 PM
No, for the reasons I described above: legacy consideration for pipelines. Exposing new features while deprecating old ones means migration.

Autodesk has customers that fear migration.

...

Add to that, there are very VERY few people at Autodesk working on rendering and it compounds the problem.

So in other words, these are features that are production ready but break backwards compatibility. And ADSK is too busy to add a shelf button that adds those features... Pretty lame.

hanskloss
03-29-2012, 05:28 PM
Then why the hell are those features non-exposed. Maybe they don't give consistent results and are buggy especially when animation is involved and don't play well with render passes or is it just that they are designed for people with a very high mentalray IQ?

That was my initial thought. I remember when I started out in mentalRay a few years back. I had no idea where to start. I was going back and forth from one tab to another, from one slider ot another guessing what is going to happen when I change a certain setting. With VRay I was cranking out decent quality images within 2 days. Everything makes sense there, no guessing games, no hidden features, no hair pulling. I can render a pretty nice car shot at full HD on a 12 core machine with tons of paint reflections, lenses and chrome in no time. Let's not forget I have fully functioning render passes. MentalRay?...I don't even want to think about it.

It took Chaos how long to get VRay into Maya? It Took Alias, then ADSK how long to have a piss ass MR integration in Maya? It's not so much about large or small facilities having the resources to manage MR. Why invest time in MR when you can have just as good of a result in fraction of time, with less resources, less frustration. I'm not dissing MR, it's a good renderer, but to get it working just right takes a lot of effort and time. How's that iRay working in Max? I've heard many artists going back to VRay RT after just a few hours of use. I guess Chaos is doing something right. I would honesty love for ADSK to get out of the whole MR integration business and let nVidia and mental images deal with it. The only concern is that if MR integration is done by nVdia and MI, they may get blocked from certain code as Chaos Group was while creating VRay for Maya.

As far as modeling tools. I have very little hope that modeling tools in Maya will ever be brought up to 21st century 3d modeling standards. It's never been, and most likely never will be, a priority for ADSK. The core of the modeling tools, it's fundamental functionality would have to be rewritten from ground up. It can be done, the question is does ADSK want to, do the designers know what the users want, do they understand how the tools would be used. The talent is there no doubt. It's the execution that's in question.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Chaosgroup controls their own integration and default settings.

For example: Maya lights don't even have shadows on by default. Why? Maya also sets Scanline as the primary renderer, which is slower. It should be raytrace.

The defaults set for mental ray haven't changed since integration. And some controls like IP are exposed in an odd way (rays for IP are actually multiple values used to control bounces)

So I agree that Vray usage is much easier without having to know anything. But ease of use versus quality is a different thing.

For those of us that practice our craft by staying current and not relying on presets, and reading release notes, it's not difficult at all. It doesn't require a genius to read 4 pages of new features.

The end result is faster and better renders with each generation despite non-exposure simply because I read the documents and try new features. With 3 modern controls and Unified Sampling I can render any scene. I don't even have to touch material settings or lights anymore.

So because of that I can get better performance than most people can. And it has nothing to do with hours of slaving over a machine or reading esoteric documents. The end result is easy and fast renders with a solution built-in that doesn't cost me more than the initial investment and maybe an hour of reading.

coccosoids
03-29-2012, 05:58 PM
So because of that I can get better performance than most people can. And it has nothing to do with hours of slaving over a machine or reading esoteric documents. The end result is easy and fast renders with a solution built-in that doesn't cost me more than the initial investment and maybe an hour of reading.

Yes, and let's say you solve the speed at which you can iterate. But then you have to do an arch render and someone comes in and gives you an IES file and says it's like 20W. Then what?! Mental ray is missing the basic minimum of... like drop down menus to even make half of a conving case that it at least tried to be the renderer integration that it should have. It doesn't even lie to you, it disconsiders you completely.

And that unfortunately is the case with many maya features: bend deformer that works in radians!!!???

Bitter
03-29-2012, 06:09 PM
Technically. . .you should be working in radians. It provides you with more information about the arc of a circle as a function.

Should also be working in radiometric terms and not photometric. (Photometric tends to make things. . .more complicated)

Watts is a radiometric convention which is at least nice. But remember, Maya wasn't set to be an arch viz product, it was originally designed for animation and vfx. Vray and Max have arch viz roots. If I were not working in animation or VFX then I would probably prefer Vray and Max.

Which means I would buy the product best suited for my needs as opposed to buying another aimed at a different demographic and then trying to change it from the outside-in. :banghead:

coccosoids
03-29-2012, 06:46 PM
If I were a robot or a machine. :) As a human I have to disagree - degrees are much more responsive to intuition. And they must be doing something right if all CAD packages adopt them.

About radiometric conversion: it's only make-up, really! Rimmel! I mean, you could simply customize the AE template to multiply divide your watt values to maya units, if you cared! Or buy a shader that already is out there, in the true tradition now of Autodesk, and ship it with all the shaders that are there. Of course, make it a production shader, have it hidden by default, have no decent AE template for it what so ever, and if possible, make it so that if I want to use with gamma correction or phisical sky, to have to change some RGB conversion unit or... my GOD, why not make it so that it works about as many times as chances are that I win the loto. There's a revolutionary concept. A $3000 loto ticket.

I know this discussion is dumb and redundant, but as far as presentation goes, maya lacks. I don't really care if it's for VFX or film or medical or space exploration. It's just something that should be there. Like a proper noise deformer.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 06:54 PM
Ok, so now change the UI to support both radiometric and photometric. Do the math for watts versus anything else the user wants. Keep radians for pipeline tools but add degrees.

Make it clear both are present and interchangeable. Add the selections or check boxes.

Do this so that it doesn't break to change existing pipelines but is obvious to new people.

And do this for all requests.

See how this might get a little complicated? And then people will complain it wasn't done how they wanted. Or in a way that's pipeline friendly. Or it broke, how incompetent! Etc.

Along with the criticism I'd like to see both users and Autodesk try to achieve better cooperation. At this point I don't know who is steering the product anymore.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 07:03 PM
Rather than a blanket approach, maybe Autodesk could take specialists from their fields: modeling, animating, rendering, etc. I feel like each section of Maya should be sectioned off. Dissected into segments and examined. It's possible this is being done but it doesn't feel like it.

Use specialists and their knowledge as guides. Improve the product for each feature more like a sniper bullet than rifle spray.

Ask for features from the people that do it for a living and then allow those people to design the feature as it should be done instead of insisting a current feature be mutated.

Like, "We want to be able to do X, how is that best accomplished?"

I feel like it's "We want to do X, how can we make something we already have do that?"

In many cases the result isn't as useful as just letting X be done from scratch as a feature (new). You just have to be careful not to let the tail wag the dog.

coccosoids
03-29-2012, 07:21 PM
Rather than a blanket approach, maybe Autodesk could take specialists from their fields: modeling, animating, rendering, etc. I feel like each section of Maya should be sectioned off. Dissected into segments and examined. It's possible this is being done but it doesn't feel like it.

Use specialists and their knowledge as guides. Improve the product for each feature more like a sniper bullet than rifle spray.

Ask for features from the people that do it for a living and then allow those people to design the feature as it should be done instead of insisting a current feature be mutated.

Like, "We want to be able to do X, how is that best accomplished?"

I feel like it's "We want to do X, how can we make something we already have do that?"

In many cases the result isn't as useful as just letting X be done from scratch as a feature (new). You just have to be careful not to let the tail wag the dog.

I only have one thing to add to that: turn your year to entry level users as well, they are the ones experimenting. They can not only tell you if you're doing it wrong, but can exemplify who they think is doing it right and how.

Other than that, I quoted the entire post, probably perfect to physically ship to Autodesk, in stone!

Bitter
03-29-2012, 07:27 PM
New users are probably the best at telling you if something is intuitive to use or not.

Older users that are already entrenched will be less likely to notice if it is intuitive after using it awhile.

I know, at least for rendering, new features are introduced to simplify things. When these are not exposed, they miss out on new users having an easy experience. But older users might find new options sitting next to old ones confusing or annoying.

I prefer old features be deprecated quickly. And eventually removed. Legacy maintenance is holding a lot of things back.

I don't see Apple customers complaining too hard when they are told to move along because a feature is no longer supported. It's designed to enhance the user experience. And they understand that now and appreciate it.

On the support side, it means new things to support, that costs money. but they can offset that by reaching more users with better controls and modern workflows.

Bitter
03-29-2012, 08:57 PM
So I guess, what might be a little more productive is what Microsoft did after the lessons of Vista: open up the development to more users for interactive feedback.

As for users, rather than sharpen the pitchfork, try and find a way to work with a developer to get them to understand (two way street) what we want with the realization that other people are asking for other things and we can't get it all at once.

For those of us in a studio, have you ever noticed that developers tend to hate to talk to artists?

If you can find a couple bridges, people that sort of straddle the line as an artist and developer, then you can design a tool:

A: Does what the artist wants (achieve X with controls A, B C)
B: Can explain the limitations of the desired tool (I can't do that without breaking G and L)
C: Give the artists as much as they can while still making it smartly and explaining the "Why I can't do that" part.

Also understand the tools are becoming much more Prosumer. Studios are hiring right out of college and they aren't hiring computer programmers like they used to. So it needs to straddle the line between professional (that's too hard to do) and consumer (not powerful enough.)

Tell me if this doesn't make sense. I've had a nutso week. :eek:

hanskloss
03-29-2012, 09:40 PM
So I guess, what might be a little more productive is what Microsoft did after the lessons of Vista: open up the development to more users for interactive feedback.

As for users, rather than sharpen the pitchfork, try and find a way to work with a developer to get them to understand (two way street) what we want with the realization that other people are asking for other things and we can't get it all at once.

For those of us in a studio, have you ever noticed that developers tend to hate to talk to artists?

If you can find a couple bridges, people that sort of straddle the line as an artist and developer, then you can design a tool:

A: Does what the artist wants (achieve X with controls A, B C)
B: Can explain the limitations of the desired tool (I can't do that without breaking G and L)
C: Give the artists as much as they can while still making it smartly and explaining the "Why I can't do that" part.

Also understand the tools are becoming much more Prosumer. Studios are hiring right out of college and they aren't hiring computer programmers like they used to. So it needs to straddle the line between professional (that's too hard to do) and consumer (not powerful enough.)

Tell me if this doesn't make sense. I've had a nutso week. :eek:

Agreed 100%. I experienced this first hand on a number of occasions. Developers hate working with artists precisely because each has its own way of thinking. Programmers don't think like artists and vice versa. Programmers will always argue that their approach makes more sense from coding perspective, and artists will argue their points. In all of my professional career I met ONE programmer, an amazing college student, who understood exactly what it meant to develop tools for artists. Unfortunately for the community he gave up, because he was busy with his own career and was frustrated with the way ADSK treated small developers.

ADSK developers are in touch with the larger studios, but I have a feeling that people like us have very little influence on what direction further development will take.

I am certain ADSK has more than enough information form users on what hey would like to see in modeling, rendering and fx, but the question is priorities. Windows is Microsoft's main software. They can afford to open the development to a wider audience. I don't see this ever happening with Maya, 3ds max or XSI for a very simple reason: resources. People would be surprised at the size of the development team for Maya. If you open the development to hundreds of people you have to sift through all of the user suggestions, data analysis, tests, QA, etc. I can imagine the headaches associated with this kind of undertaking.
I agree however, that it would be fantastic to have this kind of collaborative development for Maya.

royter
03-29-2012, 09:50 PM
between maya (animation), max(modelling/rendering), mudbox (sculpting) and motionbuilder (mocap) (and sofimage for vfx).
you mean maya (animation), max (modeling/rendering/animation)

BoostAbuse
03-30-2012, 01:53 AM
Rather than a blanket approach, maybe Autodesk could take specialists from their fields: modeling, animating, rendering, etc. I feel like each section of Maya should be sectioned off. Dissected into segments and examined. It's possible this is being done but it doesn't feel like it.

This is actually what we have internally where we have Product Designer's such as myself who represent an area or area(s) of the product where their specialty lies. Myself and some others come from a production background so we try to inject some experience into our feature areas and point out the areas we know from experience need some attention. My focus for example is mostly on Animation, Games & some pipeline stuff as my background is in TD/animation - you won't find me designing rendering features as you'd wind up with lights that squash and stretch :)

Our primary goal is to really be the voice of the customer and to help development and sometimes management understand the needs of our users as best as we can. You can imagine that it's quite the balancing act trying to take that feedback from so many users and distill it down to a common problem you can solve or a workflow when users have such a diverse way of working.

New Tech vs Old Tech is always a tough debate as on one hand starting fresh gives you a clean slate to do new things but it also means you can fall into the traps the Old Tech fell into for X years until it finally stabilized. I'm not a huge fan of just adding something new for the sake of calling it 'new' and as a reference point you'll notice that in the new ATOM feature which actually uses the same syntax/file structure as the old Anim Import/Export but just expands greatly on stability and functionality. It's a lot of "new tech" but inspired by some "old tech" :)

You guys raise an excellent point about new users and it's something that as a designer I feel is extremely important is making sure that the user experience for newcomers doesn't send them fleeing for the hills. 3D has become quite the complex puzzle and the entry barrier for newcomers is very high and I think there are many areas we can put focus on to help alleviate that and make artists feel more like artists and less like technicians or scientists should they wish.

If you guys see stuff in the UX realm we're doing where you just sit back and go "wtf?" call us on it and I'm sure someone from the design team will gladly take that feedback into consideration.

Cheers,
Shawn

Bitter
03-30-2012, 02:04 AM
http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com

Is an excellent example of something I might like for Maya.

When submitting a feature request through Maya or the web, it often disappears. (To us)

It might be interesting for us to see other competing feature requests. In many cases we may decide, "Ok, I want this other feature before the one I was going to add" and it becomes a bit more informative and democratic because now the user knows what's out there.

Internally I am not sure how successful that model has been for Max. But as a user that has repeatedly asked for the same thing a few years in a row (better mental ray integration) I'd like to see what else has been on the table that is either more important, longer running, or something I've missed.

The biggest problem and the root of all complaint, is that users in here and a few other places feel they are being ignored for a product they have paid a lot of money for.

Some more transparency on what is being considered might alleviate that frustration and even shift/align more requests to specific needs.

Bitter
03-30-2012, 02:25 AM
If you guys see stuff in the UX realm we're doing where you just sit back and go "wtf?" call us on it and I'm sure someone from the design team will gladly take that feedback into consideration.

The render settings UI is a good example where incompatible features are left exposed when non-compatible selections are made. Or something more subtle like motion samples changes meaning (names as well) when used with the rasterizer.

In UIs we've been looking at internally, we are simplifying the UI by hiding features when something is chosen that is meaningless. Like: Jitter means nothing when Unified Sampling is used in raytracing. The option should disappear (and does in our UI). This means the user has fewer options making it more streamlined. It also means less confusion later where you may want to find the cause of a problem and you are turning things on and off that don't even work with your current settings. I've driven myself insane doing that when it's due now and I can't find a simple document explanation.

(I know right now some options dim, but having them disappear is visually more effective for making the interface simple.)

This type of UI logic could be applied to more than just the render settings. It would certainly be a large undertaking to rewrite them all, but more complex systems would benefit from this approach to present a clean and logical UI devoid of extraneous options.

(If you must keep legacy, at least make it less obvious. :-) )

iOS, Android, and others already do this where things are removed from your screen for real estate and logic purposes. I cannot select "see my position" in navigation if I'm already viewing it, that button is gone. If I move away, it comes up. Simple concept really but keeps me from jabbing the wrong thing. "Why won't you show me my posi. . .! Oh, already looking at it."

InfernalDarkness
03-30-2012, 03:32 AM
3D has become quite the complex puzzle and the entry barrier for newcomers is very high and I think there are many areas we can put focus on to help alleviate that and make artists feel more like artists and less like technicians or scientists should they wish.

I find this statement distinctly profound. At this point in my personal "career", the artist is a just a memory. Upon undertaking Maya many years ago, though, I knew that it would be a rough ride. It was daunting - horribly so at first. But the features and complexity and power are all worth it in the long run; it's just been quite a challenge to learn. Easily the steepest learning curve I've ever faced - electrical-plasma physics are nothing compared to this beast you folks have created!

But it's not Maya's fault I don't make much artwork anymore - it's mine. I could get a Wacom, break out the watercolors, buy some Play-Doh if I wanted. I could undertake less complex scenes and develop my own style (instead of attempts at realism) or use my old crappy programs to make more crappy art. But knowing what's possible with Maya and Max, you just can't go back really. Ray Dream Studio ain't gonna cut it anymore. So I slave in Maya to achieve perfection, and it is a very unforgiving medium.

To finally make a point regarding new users and old: It should be easier to get from art to implementation. There are many obvious, instant limitations and that's a nebulous, unquantifiable point to make. But it often feels like in Maya you have to be a scientist, a technician. Hell, just to learn mental ray you have to go insane first. And this can certainly detract from productive artistry!

Bitter
03-30-2012, 03:44 AM
I don't really think mental ray is that hard. It's just that most people learn it first (it comes with Maya) then migrate and since that knowledge translates, it's "easier". Once you have a decent foundation you can make it to another solution easier.

Once 2013 is released I can show some performance gains and new settings to simplify some of the things you deal with in rendering and lighting as well as some bug fixes.

Should make it easier. (It's much faster.)

Just be sure you go to a good source for your knowledge and the confusion should be reduced. I see all sorts of bad things going on: using blinn, radius control FG, dielectric, 256 glossy samples, area lights with 64 low samples. . .no wonder people hate it.

So they make an amazing picture and everyone thinks, "They must really know what they're doing!"

No, not really. In fact, the software is easy enough that I see great images produced with absolutely horrible settings. And this is from some studios with great reputations.

Hamburger
03-30-2012, 04:03 AM
mental ray itself isn't hard to understand, the logic behind how its integrated into Maya, is.

BoostAbuse
03-30-2012, 05:52 AM
I find this statement distinctly profound. At this point in my personal "career", the artist is a just a memory. Upon undertaking Maya many years ago, though, I knew that it would be a rough ride. It was daunting - horribly so at first. But the features and complexity and power are all worth it in the long run; it's just been quite a challenge to learn. Easily the steepest learning curve I've ever faced - electrical-plasma physics are nothing compared to this beast you folks have created!

I think software that has an extremely vast technical depth to it is fine as that's what technology is for - to empower creative and innovative minds to achieve whatever it is they can think up, dream up or concoct. That being said the technology shouldn't impede what the user wants to achieve and when it does you quickly take the fun out of the creativity and it just becomes a 'task'. As an animation designer I look to the days of 2D animation and my fine art training as inspiration... no euler filters, no gimbal lock, no spline/linear interpolation it's about the art, the timing, the weight and the performance.

So I slave in Maya to achieve perfection, and it is a very unforgiving medium.

But if you could achieve what you want and not be impeded by tools or obscure workflows and just allow yourself to focus on the artistic side of things would that not make life better? I imagine that even the most technical people in this industry at some point wish they could just have moments where they can unleash their creativity and not be chained by tools or workflows.


But it often feels like in Maya you have to be a scientist, a technician.

I'd like to change this or at least aspire to one day hear someone say "man, do you remember how bad it used to be in the old days to do that?" :) As Bitter pointed out as tablets/mobile/desktop computers and the way we as humans interact with these devices change so too will software need to adapt to the new landscape and become more intuitive, less technical and lower the barrier for entry to newcomers looking to enter their industry of choice.

That's all my philosophical ramblings for this evening! ;)

-s

mustique
03-30-2012, 10:14 AM
...

In UIs we've been looking at internally, we are simplifying the UI by hiding features when something is chosen that is meaningless. Like: Jitter means nothing when Unified Sampling is used in raytracing. The option should disappear (and does in our UI). This means the user has fewer options making it more streamlined. It also means less confusion later where you may want to find the cause of a problem and you are turning things on and off that don't even work with your current settings. I've driven myself insane doing that when it's due now and I can't find a simple document explanation.

(I know right now some options dim, but having them disappear is visually more effective for making the interface simple.)

This type of UI logic could be applied to more than just the render settings. It would certainly be a large undertaking to rewrite them all, but more complex systems would benefit from this approach to present a clean and logical UI devoid of extraneous options..."

Very very crucial and important point made here. That UI logic applies to Fluid and paintFx and many other departments' AE settings too.

THExDUKE
03-30-2012, 11:43 AM
We can all discuss around here and even analyze the creation process for the developers to see how they are working, we can see how things have developed and we hear how designers design things but at the end it seems that the product did not bring the desired / wished satisfaction or did fulfil the expectations of the customer.

The question is why? It seems that ATDSK has a different strategy on the product than the users may have/want/wish. And that is obviously a big part of the disappointment.

If directions and expectations would be clear, then there´s no need for dissapointment, cause everyone knows what he / she has to expect. A lot of questions are unsolved because they are obviously too uncomfortable to answer and maybe that is also a reason, because Autodesk remains in silence about anything related to the products, even when they are out and people ask why this, why not, why that! There is no official statement. No, instead of that they celebrate the products like apple in a webcastshow.
Im really not sure where this is going to.

oglu
03-30-2012, 12:32 PM
a lot of the stuff you are talking about are already happening... take a look at the new ATOM feature... there was a lot forth and back goin on with the beta testers and the dev team... some other things arnt that easy... there is also a lot behind the scene goin on... if you like to get maya a better tool apply to the beta...

lostparanoia
03-30-2012, 01:37 PM
This is actually what we have internally where we have Product Designer's such as myself who represent an area or area(s) of the product where their specialty lies. Myself and some others come from a production background so we try to inject some experience into our feature areas and point out the areas we know from experience need some attention. My focus for example is mostly on Animation, Games & some pipeline stuff as my background is in TD/animation - you won't find me designing rendering features as you'd wind up with lights that squash and stretch :)

That's great, you're doing a good job on the animation side. :thumbsup:
so... about the designers with lighting/rendering background that were supposed to make my life a little easier? what have they been up to the last 5 years? Have they been working undercover on some insanely cool stuff that is soon to be released? or can I at least expect the area light sampling bug to have been fixed? will I finally be able to plug the mia_photometric_light into the photon shader of a light source?
Don't take this personally because I'm not bitchin at you. I'm asking because it's very important to me and I really want to know. We're pretty much stuck in rendering stone age here because of these bugs. Is there anyone at autodesk that has any significant knowledge of rendering workflows that is doing anything related to rendering?

royter
03-30-2012, 01:40 PM
Just be sure you go to a good source for your knowledge and the confusion should be reduced. I see all sorts of bad things going on: using blinn, radius control FG, dielectric, 256 glossy samples, area lights with 64 low samples. . .no wonder people hate it.

.
whats wrong with radius control FG?

royter
03-30-2012, 01:49 PM
I
I'd like to change this or at least aspire to one day hear someone say "man, do you remember how bad it used to be in the old days to do that?" :) As Bitter pointed out as tablets/mobile/desktop computers and the way we as humans interact with these devices change so too will software need to adapt to the new landscape and become more intuitive, less technical and lower the barrier for entry to newcomers looking to enter their industry of choice.

-s
Having worked at many studios in the last years, haven't heard one complaint by maya animators on tools or workflows, seriously never. I really think you guys are doing a great job in making Maya's animation module matchless.
The real issue is this big dark cloud surrounding the rendering/modeling modules, why are "we" customers kept in the dark? Why don't we have more information on why the MentalRay integration has been left in its current state for years? Same goes for modeling tools?
Why this complete transparency on animation/dynamics development where one can clearly see where it's headed for in the the next years and a complete blackout on rendering/modeling development direction?

lazzhar
03-30-2012, 01:55 PM
...
Why this complete transparency on animation/dynamics development where one can clearly see where it's headed for in the the next years and a complete blackout on rendering/modeling? development?

Probably because the rendering side is relying on a third party program owned by another company and it's hard for them to make assumption on what they don't know .

Redsand1080
03-30-2012, 01:59 PM
Once 2013 is released I can show some performance gains and new settings to simplify some of the things you deal with in rendering and lighting as well as some bug fixes.


Really looking forward to this. Just found out our current sub won't run out until July so looks like I'll be getting 2013 and be able to take advantage of these performance gains and bug fixes!

-Justin

royter
03-30-2012, 02:17 PM
Probably because the rendering side is relying on a third party program owned by another company and it's hard for them to make assumption on what they don't know .
the integration is done entirely by Autodesk.

hanskloss
03-30-2012, 02:29 PM
Having worked at many studios in the last years, haven't heard one complaint by maya animators on tools or workflows, seriously never. I really think you guys are doing a great job in making Maya's animation module matchless.
The real issue is this big dark cloud surrounding the rendering/modeling modules, why are "we" customers kept in the dark? Why don't we have more information on why the MentalRay integration has been left in its current state for years? Same goes for modeling tools?
Why this complete transparency on animation/dynamics development where one can clearly see where it's headed for in the the next years and a complete blackout on rendering/modeling development direction?

I couldn't agree more. Modelers especially have been getting the short end of the stick, if even that the last few releases. Whatever has been added is just the tip of an iceberg. Nothing significant has been changed in the modeling tool set since probably Maya 7. The new extrude tool with inset feature, insert/offset edge loop, slide edge loop, bridge, SS, interactive split are nothing special. Bridge is buggy, interactive split still quirky, insert and offset edge loop tools should be one and the same depending on selection and hotkey combo, slide should be an automatic default option in the insert edge loop tool. Modeling tools in Maya are a perfect example of how a programmer ignores the input from the artist on how the tools are used. I said this 5 years ago and I will say this again: Where is the collaboration between the programmers/designers and artists when it comes to modeling tools? :wise:
It's 2012, where in God's name is the fully functioning symmetry for ALL tools? Where is the fully, and I stress the word, fully functioning pre-selection highlighting system that encompasses the entire application not only polygons? Where are multi-functional, selection dependent hotkey/sticky keys? It blows my mind that in over a decade Alias and now ADSK couldn't figure out how to create a fast and user friendly modeling module for Maya. I refuse to accept the notion that it isn't doable or that the intellectual capability isn't there. Can we honestly have a decent, professional and honest discussion of why these concerns, albeit not at the top of the development list, have NOT been addressed sufficiently, if at all? I would really love to hear something.

Bitter
03-30-2012, 02:42 PM
the integration is done entirely by Autodesk.

Correct.

We've been begging they return the translator to nVidia.

Or open source it so we can integrate our own tools and tools that exist, i.e. texture caching, stereo rendering, iray, etc. This won't help smaller houses or freelancers without the resources.

Arnold has a great advantage here because you can work on the translator. But Arnold is more expensive (why not use what came with Maya) and more limited (more like iray).

coccosoids
03-30-2012, 02:47 PM
Having worked at many studios in the last years, haven't heard one complaint by maya animators on tools or workflows, seriously never. I really think you guys are doing a great job in making Maya's animation module matchless.

How are these animators going about animating a sphere with a noise type deformer, only on one axis? Or, how do they change noise frequency to be higher on Z, and lover in Y and X?

Bitter
03-30-2012, 02:50 PM
But if you could achieve what you want and not be impeded by tools or obscure workflows and just allow yourself to focus on the artistic side of things would that not make life better? I imagine that even the most technical people in this industry at some point wish they could just have moments where they can unleash their creativity and not be chained by tools or workflows.

This would be iRay for rendering. Push button for everything.

And while iRay is certainly a great renderer, mental ray is still most flexible for production. In fact, Autodesk could request and work with ARC on generating new shaders designed to work with Unified Sampling in a way that is similar to iRay. Giving you the flexibility of mental ray with the simplicity of iRay if desired.

With Unified Sampling exposed we've already shown that your tweaking is down to just indirect lighting and maybe SSS. The rest is now push-button controlled by a Quality knob. Use native ibl and it gets even easier. It's very simple, looks great, DOF and motion blur take care of themselves.

It's a UI change and nothing more.

The bug problem is that yes, some bugs do get through time to time, but Beta testing is done on exposed features. This means other features get no testing in practical use. So of course there might be bugs. Some of us have been working hard to squash them but without exposure of the features we can't catch all of them.

I feel like rendering is being left behind on the basis of "it must be perfect to integrate" well, it can't be perfect unless you try and use it and refine it.

bigbossfr
03-30-2012, 02:59 PM
Correct.

We've been begging they return the translator to nVidia.

Or open source it so we can integrate our own tools and tools that exist, i.e. texture caching, stereo rendering, iray, etc. This won't help smaller houses or freelancers without the resources.

Arnold has a great advantage here because you can work on the translator. But Arnold is more expensive (why not use what came with Maya) and more limited (more like iray).

Chaos Group give you all sources of the translator of Vray For Maya too (with NDA) for free.

lazzhar
03-30-2012, 04:08 PM
the integration is done entirely by Autodesk.

What I meant is that it's not possible to plan much if you don't have full control on the product. If we wake up to hear that nvidia has axed mental ray then what Adsk could say? Switch to maya software render?

Bitter
03-30-2012, 04:18 PM
Autodesk is their biggest customer. They drive the majority of features you see in Maya and iRay (others have some say like VFX studios and other integrators, but Autodesk is the big customer.)

So Autodesk does in fact do a lot of steering for mental ray features. Some good and some rather bad. In fact, if they have a customer using an artifact, they are reluctant to accept a fix for that artifact because a customer relies on it. I consider that stupid.

It might be better for them to a little educating on rendering, "you don't want this, you want that, we'll provide it" As opposed to the current stagnation.

This goes back to my earlier post of having the people who do what they know best guide that part of the product. This means letting nVidia do what they obviously do well: graphics. And allow them to integrate it how it should be operated. (Give them the translator back.)

nbreslow
03-30-2012, 04:28 PM
The render settings UI is a good example where incompatible features are left exposed when non-compatible selections are made. Or something more subtle like motion samples changes meaning (names as well) when used with the rasterizer.

In UIs we've been looking at internally, we are simplifying the UI by hiding features when something is chosen that is meaningless. Like: Jitter means nothing when Unified Sampling is used in raytracing. The option should disappear (and does in our UI). This means the user has fewer options making it more streamlined. It also means less confusion later where you may want to find the cause of a problem and you are turning things on and off that don't even work with your current settings. I've driven myself insane doing that when it's due now and I can't find a simple document explanation.

(I know right now some options dim, but having them disappear is visually more effective for making the interface simple.)

This type of UI logic could be applied to more than just the render settings. It would certainly be a large undertaking to rewrite them all, but more complex systems would benefit from this approach to present a clean and logical UI devoid of extraneous options.

(If you must keep legacy, at least make it less obvious. :-) )

iOS, Android, and others already do this where things are removed from your screen for real estate and logic purposes. I cannot select "see my position" in navigation if I'm already viewing it, that button is gone. If I move away, it comes up. Simple concept really but keeps me from jabbing the wrong thing. "Why won't you show me my posi. . .! Oh, already looking at it."

Great comment here - for me, this is at the center of the whole Mental Ray integration in Maya gripe and why I think there are so many complaints.

Legacy concerns aside, there are UI elements all over the place that could be made better by modifying/updating the Mental Ray AE templates to make them more logical and intuitive. Prime example can be found here (http://kobayashystips.blogspot.com/2009/09/mia-exposure-photographic-ae-template.html). And DJX did this here (http://www.djx.com.au/blog/2007/10/16/choose-exposure/). Just look at the mia_photometric_light, a really useful light that is begging for a little logic in the Attribute editor.

And the Render Settings - great point! Example - why should I have to memorize every Data Type possible for every File Type? The way it should work is that you select a File Type to render to, then the only options available in the Data Type are those supported by that particular File Type. Small potatoes, yes, I agree - but apply that same critical thinking to all settings and you are going to reduce the potential for error dramatically.

I am not expecting something dumbed down to a single button or slider to render a perfect image. I like all the control you have in Mental Ray. However I don't want to have to make round trips to the documentation (both sets) all the time or deal with options that should be greyed, feature integration mismatches, etc. Here's to hoping some of this gets cleaned up. I am in total agreement with you - Mental Ray has the power, but it is lost somewhere...

-NB

lazzhar
03-30-2012, 04:33 PM
still it's not easy to build up on a foundation that doesn't belong to you. Even if the partnership is in its best days a conflict could appear at any moment or a protagonist could go bankrupt .

nbreslow
03-30-2012, 04:42 PM
I am also disappointed that some obvious improvements to the modeling toolset haven't been made (Smooth Edge Loop?). All I can say is dRaster NEX.

-NB

Bitter
03-30-2012, 04:49 PM
mental ray integration for major features is just a UI change.

Unified Controls now operate:
iRay
Progressive
Raytracing (Unified Sampling)
Rasterizer

Depending on the selection you make for renderer, the options should disappear when incompatible. But the main controls are now greatly reduced.

Features that need integration are things like:
Better viewer support (live rendering view of passes, progressive rendering api, iray)
Native stereo rendering
Texture caching, etc.

Some of these can be added through the rayrc as a registry entry but that's not "integration"

Also, knowing how this partnerships works and should work, I don't see the concern of 'integrating a product that's not yours'. Autodesk adopts a lot of technology that isn't developed by them (Alembic anyone?) And while I'm sure they lament nVidia getting mental images before they did, I'm much happier they didn't. It's like rendering is some alien concept unneeded for a complete product.

still it's not easy to build up on a foundation that doesn't belong to you. Even if the partnership is in its best days a conflict could appear at any moment or a protagonist could go bankrupt .

I don't think nVidia or Autodesk are going anywhere any time soon.

For mental ray, you buy the core functions and build features around it to match your customer. This is done in a lot of industries like the automotive industry (not everything in that automobile was made by the manufacturer; some of it gets purchased and built into the car. Theoretically based on what their customer wants. So rather than having Chevrolet get into the car audio business, they let people who KNOW audio make the parts.) Development is very much driven by the customer. That's the point. You get what you want without having to do it yourself and getting it done by people that know how. Do you replace your own head gasket in your car? Do you take it somewhere?

I do see developers from Autodesk participate like BoostAbuse and Duncan Brinsmead. But oddly. . .never seen a rendering developer.

And one way to secure the product future as the main customer is to drive the development and usage of the product. Not chase people away.

If we were all still buying cars with 8-track tape players, how many of you would buy an after market radio? Raise your hand. . .

If I get a modern head unit, I don't have to go after market and I save money.

hanskloss
03-30-2012, 05:12 PM
I am also disappointed that some obvious improvements to the modeling toolset haven't been made (Smooth Edge Loop?). All I can say is dRaster NEX.

-NB

The idea is good, somewhat, but implementation bites. Still a long way from what it should be.

lazzhar
03-30-2012, 06:10 PM
Also, knowing how this partnerships works and should work, I don't see the concern of 'integrating a product that's not yours'. Autodesk adopts a lot of technology that isn't developed by them (Alembic anyone?) And while I'm sure they lament nVidia getting mental images before they did, I'm much happier they didn't. It's like rendering is some alien concept unneeded for a complete product.

...
Isn't Alembic supposed to be open source?
Anyway my comment was a general response to people wondering why there is no clear vision on Maya development rendering wise. Understandable? Yes, justifiable? No.

BoostAbuse
03-30-2012, 06:32 PM
That's great, you're doing a good job on the animation side. :thumbsup:
so... about the designers with lighting/rendering background that were supposed to make my life a little easier? what have they been up to the last 5 years? Have they been working undercover on some insanely cool stuff that is soon to be released? or can I at least expect the area light sampling bug to have been fixed? will I finally be able to plug the mia_photometric_light into the photon shader of a light source?
Don't take this personally because I'm not bitchin at you. I'm asking because it's very important to me and I really want to know. We're pretty much stuck in rendering stone age here because of these bugs. Is there anyone at autodesk that has any significant knowledge of rendering workflows that is doing anything related to rendering?

I can't really get into specifics or details but I will say that our new rendering designer is a truly awesome guy with a vast knowledge of lighting, rendering and compositing. He's been a fantastic addition to the team and has been driving the Viewport 2.0 agenda recently to make it much more usable for artists.


I do see developers from Autodesk participate like BoostAbuse and Duncan Brinsmead. But oddly. . .never seen a rendering developer.

And one way to secure the product future as the main customer is to drive the development and usage of the product. Not chase people away.


They float about and definitely watch as I know myself and the designer have discussed many points raised on these forums around rendering before and some of the rendering software engineers do lurk here and gather notes as well. I guess one question I'd have is do you feel that a presence here would be better or would providing your input somewhere like a beta forum (or that 3dsmax style forum you linked) be better?

-s

hanskloss
03-30-2012, 07:05 PM
I guess one question I'd have is do you feel that a presence here would be better or would providing your input somewhere like a beta forum (or that 3dsmax style forum you linked) be better?
-s

Shawn, a beta forum for Maya would be fantastic, but knowing that not everyone can be accepted into the beta program, it would be nice to know that some of the ideas that are regularly discussed here would also be taken into account when developing a road map for new features.

nbreslow
03-30-2012, 07:09 PM
They float about and definitely watch as I know myself and the designer have discussed many points raised on these forums around rendering before and some of the rendering software engineers do lurk here and gather notes as well. I guess one question I'd have is do you feel that a presence here would be better or would providing your input somewhere like a beta forum (or that 3dsmax style forum you linked) be better?
-s

While I am not thrilled with all things Adobe I must say that their Labs project and the beta feedback they accumulate have produced results. I really liked the JDI (Just Do It) emphasis they have with the new PSCS6 (see here (http://forums.adobe.com/message/4223572#4223572)). It sends a clear message to users that they are listening. Also, their trend of releasing a beta version of Photoshop and Lightroom drives people to the site and generates a ton of feedback. Look at how many posts are in the CS6 forum! While I don't think AD would release a public beta of most of their products, why not have betas or nightlies available to subscription customers? I know Autodesk has a Labs initiative but the Media & Entertainment products really aren't featured there at all. I think that the Area might be the place but I really dislike the forum engine there and the site sometimes seems a bit more like a promo showcase than a place to share information and ideas. To be honest, I'm not sure but there are some lessons to be learned from Adobe (cough, cough).

-NB

royter
03-30-2012, 07:37 PM
I can't really get into specifics or details but I will say that our new rendering designer is a truly awesome guy with a vast knowledge of lighting, rendering and compositing. He's been a fantastic addition to the team and has been driving the Viewport 2.0 agenda recently to make it much more usable for artists.

-s
Viewport2.0 is a great feature but IIjust don't understand why all the focus of the rendering team relies on this detail, it's only a viewer for god sake, we should have that by default. How can you felicitate yourself of having a simple viewer in 2012? I just don't believe what i am reading.
We have been told numerous times how awesome is this feature but this doesn't really excuse the lack of transparency regarding the modeling/rendering development for the years to come.
From my perspective, i can tell that Maya is being oriented towards Animation rather then a complete 3D software like Max. We "users" don't like being left in the dark.

meuH
03-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Shawn, a beta forum for Maya would be fantastic, but knowing that not everyone can be accepted into the beta program, it would be nice to know that some of the ideas that are regularly discussed here would also be taken into account when developing a road map for new features.

This pretty much. Also, maybe expanding a little bit the access to beta to generate more industry feedback?

Anyhow, as mentionned by many others already, at the very least something similar to http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com for Maya would go a long way in order to reach a much broader range of users (and get a better feel of trends and what users want/need).

BoostAbuse
03-30-2012, 08:10 PM
Viewport2.0 is a great feature but IIjust don't understand why all the focus of the rendering team relies on this detail, it's only a viewer for god sake, we should have that by default. How can you felicitate yourself of having a simple viewer in 2012? I just don't believe what i am reading.


At no point has anyone said that's the focus of the entire team - I simply said he's been driving that lately while also pointing out I cannot go into other details or more specifics :)

MasonDoran
03-30-2012, 08:30 PM
Beta users also visit these forums a lot, and are making a ton of suggestions, feedback, and criticism of course. My impression is that it is fairly broad and fair selection of users on the beta team as well as 3rd party plugin developers, all involved in anyway they can.

What the beta testers dont have access to is the roadmap or the design process. Our job is to find design flaws.

Its all been said before on the private beta forums, and reflects a lot of suggestions on the public forums. In seems to just come down to the userbase needing an incredible amount of patience, or pressure from competitors.

InfernalDarkness
03-30-2012, 08:39 PM
I think that perhaps to put ourselves in the proper frame-of-mind regarding Maya's development, which is an impossible beast for most humans to ever wrap their heads around to begin with, one could think of it in terms of what everyone else needs/desires first. To even know what everyone else needs and desires is a task in and of itself. What do animators want? What do environmental and scientific users want? What do modelers need? I'm sure it's not easy for the AD staff to cater to everyone's needs, if it were even possible.

Knowing in general what a broader range of users want/desire puts into perspective my own wants and desires. I often get sidelined or railroaded for just doing arch/viz work, with comments like "you're the only one using Maya" or "just use Max, alread" or even references to C4D. Perhaps this is true, or close enough? If so, then my needs and desires represent the tiniest fraction of the needs and desires of the entire user base. Would it be selfish of me to want workflow improvements and UI/integration updates? I think it would.

But I want 'em anyway! And many such improvements would just be spillover from other improvements that other, non-arch/viz users also desire. I personally hope Viewport 2 continues to mature - it'd be nice to do more pre-viz in VP2 and thus save myself a bit of test-rendering on occasion, for certain. And I'd love to see 500M polys in my viewport at 30fps someday (GTX680?), which is simply impossible in previous viewport tech on the budgets I'm stuck with.

Bitter
03-30-2012, 09:55 PM
I guess one question I'd have is do you feel that a presence here would be better or would providing your input somewhere like a beta forum (or that 3dsmax style forum you linked) be better?

I was blocked from the Beta forum. If you look, I am still signed up but never assigned a project.

I was asked, "Do we know you from a forum?" I answered yes and who I was. Sounds like an odd question to me. (I spoke to Laleña Whitcombe)

Several more attempts to get on the Beta were ignored. I was able to use and test from a couple studios and managed to find and report many things to ARC directly on Standalone 3.10, but Beta admission for Maya is apparently political and very disappointing.

I am interested in solutions and while I am (justifiably critical) of rendering integration, I think you can tell my aim is a solution where we can find a common goal.

BoostAbuse
03-31-2012, 12:12 AM
I was blocked from the Beta forum. If you look, I am still signed up but never assigned a project.

I was asked, "Do we know you from a forum?" I answered yes and who I was. Sounds like an odd question to me. (I spoke to Laleña Whitcombe)

Several more attempts to get on the Beta were ignored. I was able to use and test from a couple studios and managed to find and report many things to ARC directly on Standalone 3.10, but Beta admission for Maya is apparently political and very disappointing.

I am interested in solutions and while I am (justifiably critical) of rendering integration, I think you can tell my aim is a solution where we can find a common goal.

Hmmm... yeah that's not exactly a standard question that gets asked. I can take a look on Monday about getting you an email re-sent if you want? I've had issues in the past where registration emails get flagged as spam and I don't see them or our registration emails to users get dumped in a spam bin.

If you want to PM me an email you use for the beta or your name I can check it on Monday and look at getting you an invite when the next round begins.

Bitter
03-31-2012, 12:29 AM
Sent, thanks.

hanskloss
03-31-2012, 12:41 AM
I was blocked from the Beta forum. If you look, I am still signed up but never assigned a project.

I was asked, "Do we know you from a forum?" I answered yes and who I was. Sounds like an odd question to me. (I spoke to Laleña Whitcombe)

Several more attempts to get on the Beta were ignored. I was able to use and test from a couple studios and managed to find and report many things to ARC directly on Standalone 3.10, but Beta admission for Maya is apparently political and very disappointing.

I am interested in solutions and while I am (justifiably critical) of rendering integration, I think you can tell my aim is a solution where we can find a common goal.

You're not the only one. I remember being booted out of the beta forums when Maya 2008 was being tested. I openly criticized, in a very civilized manner, the modeling tools and suggested numerous solutions to existing tools and their functionality. I asked very in depth questions and was asked to stop posting within 48 hours from joining. Totally absurd considering I was an ADSK employee at the time and had very direct contact with important clients who stated very similar complaints for months since working with our consulting group in Detroit. I was shocked, because it seemed as if my complaints and my clients concerns were ignored and flat out rejected. Unprofessional to say the least.

Bitter
03-31-2012, 12:47 AM
I can understand they don't want it to become a free-for-all (just look at these forums some days.) And while it's tempting to accept anyone, the noise level in here can become very high. (I occasionally take long breaks.)

But I don't feel like I am an unknown quantity at this point. Looking through here you won't find me flying off the handle on some random tangent calling someone an imbecile.

The crazier you are, the less influential you become. :)

InfernalDarkness
03-31-2012, 01:01 AM
The crazier you are, the less influential you become. :)

So that's why nobody voted for me for my second term as the President of the Voting Sucks Club in school? Or was I not crazy enough and therefore too influential? Mission accomplished, I guess! (grins)

I find you to be far less bitter than your screen-name would imply. In the time since first "meeting" you here, you've helped me tons on a huge range of projects, Bitter. And you as well, Hanskloss. I've just never considered myself "on the level" to be involved in an actual Beta, outside of silly gaming or smaller (but imporant) side-projects such as Mercuito's Core set. And given my caustic nature: probably a good thing I'm not involved in AutoDesk's forums at all! If you didn't last two days, Hanskloss, I'd likely not last an hour. (grins) I have a rather low tolerance for BS, which is pathetic considering it's the most common element in the cosmos anymore.

But I don't think being involved in a beta version would really help with adding features, but more with repairing broken ones? Honestly, I'm under enough pressure at work already and am grateful to have folks like you guys around to bail me out when I get stuck in Maya, which is still very often.

hanskloss
03-31-2012, 01:03 AM
I can understand they don't want it to become a free-for-all (just look at these forums some days.) And while it's tempting to accept anyone, the noise level in here can become very high. (I occasionally take long breaks.)

But I don't feel like I am an unknown quantity at this point. Looking through here you won't find me flying off the handle on some random tangent calling someone an imbecile.

The crazier you are, the less influential you become. :)

I agree with you. CGTalk, with all due respect to many respectable members, isn't the epitome of professionalism. There is a huge tendency for people to be rude, unprofessional and quite often to fly off on tangent. I am very passionate about what I do and about my ideas, but I don't make it my personal agenda to shove these ideas down anyones throat. I am always very open to professional discussions with in depth analysis, and even very harsh criticism if valid. :)

Bitter
03-31-2012, 01:27 AM
A Beta, when run well, allows a few different things:

1. Bug collection
2. Performance analysis
3. Future direction (guidance)
4. Production level use

And some more.

And the huge chunk of this should be transparent. You don't want to give away things competitors will use, but you should be happy to say "We are working towards feature X" without giving away the feature's inner workings.

There's only so much dogfooding can get you at a company. They'll need people outside to help.

Non-expert users show you what you might have missed or not thought about. Fewer of those of course.

Vesuvius71
03-31-2012, 08:42 PM
what i don't like about being a maya freelance artist is that everywhere i go they use a different version of maya. every version of maya have different bugs. some of program is broken in one version and some in another. it is very difficult to remember what is the problem of one version compare to an other. makes life very difficult to freelance in maya. not sure why maya is like this. is it autodesk's fault or the maya programmers are just very unorganized and non professional. clients and directors don't know that the program is broken and don't care. they think it's the artist that is not good. they say "why is it taking so long?" "should be easy". are other 3d programs like this? not reliable? simple things cause crash and flicker and bad results. different things in different versions. how can you be creative like this. i think it's very bad program. never fixed for good. always too many thing broken again and again. i'm not sure i want any new futures that i don't need. i want everything that is already there for many years to work in every version.

royter
04-01-2012, 01:58 AM
At no point has anyone said that's the focus of the entire team - I simply said he's been driving that lately while also pointing out I cannot go into other details or more specifics :)

I completely understand why you can't be more specific neither go into details, because there isn't much to say when it comes to modeling/rendering development:
It has been written in hundred of articles evaluating Maya : 3D artist/3D world/3D total/CGsociety just to name a few. Everyone (yes even big studios) have pointed out their big disappointment in Maya's rendering/modelinng field and 2013 was expected to push Maya to the next generation just like Max. BTW this has been expected since Maya 2010, but each year you keep saying that you can't talk about details, ther is no details to talk about. Just keep in mind that after years of deception we are no longer waiting for small details but for a radical change.And orienting Maya just for animation as you are doing right now may bring you more money for a reason or another in the present but its definitely not a smart neither a sustainable plan for the future.

Bitter
04-01-2012, 04:09 AM
Cory Mogk mentions on the Mayalicious blog that they are looking into setting up a User Voice like Max has ( http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com/forums/80695-publicgeneralfeaturerequests )

eikonoklastes
04-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Cory Mogk mentions on the Mayalicious blog that they are looking into setting up a User Voice like Max has ( http://3dsmaxfeedback.autodesk.com/forums/80695-publicgeneralfeaturerequests )
I'm not sure I understand this voting system. Why allow a single user to vote multiple times on the same topic? Also, why limit a user to a maximum number of votes? What if there are more issues I would like resolved than I have votes available? I think it's safe to say that there are more than 20 pressing issues with Maya in each module that need urgent resolving (20 being the maximum votes allowed per forum on that Max site).

Braden99
04-01-2012, 07:27 AM
I believe the purpose of having limited points, Is so the voter has to make hard choices of specific features they want. They can either expend many of their points for something they absolutely need, or spread them out over many wishes. Once enough people make their own personal hard choices, clear areas of focus may arise. I believe only allowing limited points is the best way to get a relatively focused set of data. Obviously the development group of Maya don't have unlimited resources, so we can't expect them to implement a great deal of the wishes immediately, or even in a timely manner. Some ideas may simply be stupid or so radical they are almost impossible.

Each release of Maya can only realistically bring a limited number of features, so letting users choose more than 20 wishes is looking out to far in the future. With a large pool of people voting, the user voice will likely contain hundreds of wishes (some of which will have only 1 or 2 votes). 3DMax's user voice system allows user's to change their votes over time, and points are rewarded back to them once a feature is implemented.

lostparanoia
04-01-2012, 09:57 AM
I can't really get into specifics or details but I will say that our new rendering designer is a truly awesome guy with a vast knowledge of lighting, rendering and compositing. He's been a fantastic addition to the team and has been driving the Viewport 2.0 agenda recently to make it much more usable for artists.

Ok, so no improvements in rendering then I guess... :shrug: as expected...

eikonoklastes
04-01-2012, 12:20 PM
I believe the purpose of having limited points, Is so the voter has to make hard choices of specific features they want. They can either expend many of their points for something they absolutely need, or spread them out over many wishes. Once enough people make their own personal hard choices, clear areas of focus may arise. I believe only allowing limited points is the best way to get a relatively focused set of data. Obviously the development group of Maya don't have unlimited resources, so we can't expect them to implement a great deal of the wishes immediately, or even in a timely manner. Some ideas may simply be stupid or so radical they are almost impossible.

Each release of Maya can only realistically bring a limited number of features, so letting users choose more than 20 wishes is looking out to far in the future. With a large pool of people voting, the user voice will likely contain hundreds of wishes (some of which will have only 1 or 2 votes). 3DMax's user voice system allows user's to change their votes over time, and points are rewarded back to them once a feature is implemented.
I don't think it's a good system. With limited votes, users are forced to limit themselves to only the bigger issues, while being forced to ignore several smaller, but important issues. For e.g., the native file browser has no UI to browse the network. You have to paste a network path in. It's completely daft, and I'd imagine it only requires a small amount of time to fix. Similarly, it doesn't show thumbnails. Another small fix.

Yet, thanks to the system in place, I'd never waste my votes on something like that and focus on the bigger issues instead. Meanwhile, all these little annoyances and niggles, which could be tackled alongside, will get forgotten forever.

Braden99
04-01-2012, 01:03 PM
I don't think it's a good system. With limited votes, users are forced to limit themselves to only the bigger issues, while being forced to ignore several smaller, but important issues.

I don't know if there is a perfect system, however it's better than nothing. I guess there could be separate votes for small annoying things. 3DMax and Softimage actually had preview videos covering fixes for small S.A.T's.

In the ideal world we would all just list every single improvement we want, and Autodesk would implement all of them in Maya 2014. But that's not possible in this universe. Twenty votes does give the opportunity to vote for some larger new features, and quite a few smaller improvements. I'd expect Autodesk wouldn't stop thinking up their own improvements to Maya in any case, so some of those small improvements may just come naturally anyway.

cakesodainitiative
04-01-2012, 09:25 PM
what i don't like about being a maya freelance artist is that everywhere i go they use a different version of maya. every version of maya have different bugs. some of program is broken in one version and some in another. it is very difficult to remember what is the problem of one version compare to an other. makes life very difficult to freelance in maya..

Sorry dude but it's like that with any software vs studio you go to. Some studios refuse to update their software regardless if it's Max, C4D, Lightwave or Maya. Some also refuse to patch. Yes, things can be broken and aren't fixed in any of those software. That's a studio thing. I've been to some where I wonder how they even call their setup a pipeline. It's just something you have to deal with as a freelancer and has nothing specifically to do with being a freelancer who uses maya. The two things you can do as a freelancer, recommend these places upgrade their software or, don't work at these places.

Vesuvius71
04-01-2012, 09:52 PM
yes of course. but maya is the only tool where the same thing breaks and get fixed and breaks again in different versions. the other day i ended up working in maya 2011 and i ended up with that old problem where i couldn't see the ticks in the timeline for only the selected attributes in the channel box. this worked for 12 years and was broken in 2011. this is just one example. nothing is guaranteed to work in any version. that is what i mean. if you work in 2010 feature "a" "c" and "e" are broken. in 2011 it's "a" "b" "e" and "f" in 2012 hotfix 4 it's the file browser window being too slow and feature "g", "f" and "k".

can you imagine working in a different version of maya every couple of days and still be productive?

why do you think the studios are not upgrading? because of the same reason. they are afraid to because it's like russian roulette. they want to know that these 20 features are broken and they know not to touch them. if they upgrade they have !rediscover! where all the new broken stuff is hidden. maya is like hunting easter egg in mine field. thank you for your reply but this is how is in reality. and it's not good creative productive experience. everything but.

my biggest worry when i go to a new company is "what version of maya might they use?. I hope not this version because of a+b+e bug or that version because of a+g+k bug".
perhaps now you understand what it's like to use maya as freelance?

i don't have such problem with other programs. nuke, after fx, real flow photoshop. only maya. maya is so special? or just sloppy.

Bitter
04-02-2012, 07:01 AM
I dunno, for a little while there Nuke would fix something only to roll it back because it introduced a new bug.

But in Maya's defense, Nuke is much less complex.

Maya could possibly use a fair helping of refactoring. Re-writing would take a lot more resources and delay other needed things.

http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/601/lectures/refactoring/refactoring.html

I think the bigger problem isn't the perceived bugs that are introduced, but the ones that hang around. I know there was one with the Render View that was literally one line of mel code everyone just fixed himself. Which was a great source of frustration; it existed for some time and was a simple fix. No one knew why it had sat there for so long.

These are the problems I want to avoid, where the ball was dropped. And if I found the solution and made it available (and it's valid) I'd hope to see it implemented. (In this case DJX found it and fixed it.) Which is why I was disappointed with the Beta. If I can isolate a problem, I am hopeful to reduce the time to find a fix. Rather than provide a vague description, try to provide a scene file with a consistent reproducible bug and steps.

Lightweight
04-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Anyone that actually ordered it yet?
I put together this post to summarize the Maya release info:

http://www.cambranddesigns.com/autodesk2013/

Vesuvius71
04-02-2012, 12:39 PM
maya is a big complex program. it's true. but most of the bugs are not complicated and just annoying bugs labeled "low priority" which are there because somebody is lazy. the big problem with maya is that it's full of such little annoying bugs. everywhere you click there are bugs. most functions have a story to tell. so now after many years of not cleaning up the little bugs it is huge task to clean up. it's like your desk where you work. if you do not clean it up a little every day it become so messy that it become a HUGE job.

look at this stupid bug:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=86&t=1043904

is there workaround? yes. but how many workarounds must one know to get job done in maya? THOUSANDS!

let's see if THIS bug will be in 2013. it was there in 2011 and 2012.

and then some simple features that don't exist in maya like a particle/nparticle combiner. it should exist from maya version 1. 13 years later still nothing.

realflow had emittion bug from geometry i think. it was fixed 1 moth later after it was discovered. in maya it take 5-6 years to fix some very annoying "low priority" bugs.

but look at shinny viewport 2.0!! i never use it. do you?

mustique
04-02-2012, 02:28 PM
ADSK has built up a culture of focus groups, user statistics & request to the point where they are becoming blind. They are just adding and piling code ontop of old bugs. As much as I hate to accept it, that's not going to change. Yet there's a much bigger problem than bugs to me: The lack/fear of innovation.

ADSK ME' latest mega suite is called "Ultimate". Reminds me of Microsoft coolness. Actually MS tries harder these days, now that they feel the pressure. They actually try to innovate with Windows 8.

You just can't innovate by measuring user statistics and evaluating requests on present tools and workflows. Cause users are burried into old habbits and they've accepted common limits.

Users only realize innovation when they see it somewhere else. Nobody dreamed of brushsculpting on millions of polygons till Zbrush introduced it. Nobody dreamed of fast GPU driven watersimulation on the desktop till sideFx showed it. Nobody dreamed of an UVless workflow till Ptex made it possible...

But these are the kind innovations you'll have a hard time introducing with an old, unstable core. So I don't expect much in terms of innovation from ADSK till the X86 computing era officialy ends. Cause till that happens, they won't feel like they must innovate and start from scratch.

hanskloss
04-02-2012, 03:25 PM
ADSK has built up a culture of focus groups, user statistics & request to the point where they are becoming blind. They are just adding and piling code ontop of old bugs. As much as I hate to accept it, that's not going to change. Yet there's a much bigger problem than bugs to me: The lack/fear of innovation.

ADSK ME' latest mega suite is called "Ultimate". Reminds me of Microsoft coolness. Actually MS tries harder these days, now that they feel the pressure. They actually try to innovate with Windows 8.

You just can't innovate by measuring user statistics and evaluating requests on present tools and workflows. Cause users are burried into old habbits and they've accepted common limits.

I don't expect much in terms of innovation from ADSK till the X86 computing era officialy ends. Cause till that happens, they won't feel like they must innovate and start from scratch.

You are absolutely right. I'd add to this the fact that innovation is an absolute oxymoron in the world of ADSK M&E. If you look at the software releases from the M&E division in the last decade there isn't a single piece of software that constitutes innovation. Every piece of software that came out of this division has been an acquisition at one time or another. 3dsmax used to be a Kinetix product, Maya an Alias|Wavefront baby, XSI by Softimage, Mudbox created by three guys from Skymatter (Andrew Camenisch, Dave Cardwell and Tibor Madjar all ex-Weta ). When you analyze every release since each acquisition, an interesting and strange pattern emerges: a slowdown or downright stoppage in innovation of each software. ADSK is a mere follower not a trend setter or innovator. As far as Maya is concerned, apart from animation nothing has been done to keep the software competitive with others. What baffles me is that users have been bitching about very specific areas that needed attention for years, and those areas have systematically been ignored, year after year. That is something that I simply cannot understand. I can understand trying to play it safe from time to time, but ignoring users pleas and giving innovation a proverbial birdie is utterly unacceptable.

sentry66
04-02-2012, 05:46 PM
We don't even fully know the full feature list release notes yet and people are still automatically bitter and pissed off at autodesk.

max users endured something like 10 years of pain wanting proper NURBS tools and a rendering engine before max became good and could compete with all the big boys. I know some of you have no idea what I'm even talking about and don't even know who Kinetix was.

I have features I've been wanting in Adobe products for almost 10 years now and I'm not even close to being pissed off about it or hateful of Adobe as some of you guys are towards Autodesk.

No one is making you use maya. If you work for a studio that makes you use it and maya pisses you off, who's fault is that? Otherwise change software and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Open criticisms are fine, but the negativity and unprofessionalism here is exhausting.

Half the stuff people complain about with MR integration or whatnot, I don't even see a huge problem with in relation to maya's node based architecture approach. Maya is a more technical minded piece of software. People complain that a light's intensity and photon intensity having independent controls is counterintuitive and should be linked. However, I have many occasions where I'm HDRI lighting something and want a spot light to cast photons instead of the HDRI because the rendertimes are drastically faster. Yet all I'll hear about is how slow MR is....

I'm still using maya 2009 and have been learning new things about maya all the time. Yet I don't know how many "experienced" maya users I've encountered who complain about maya when really they just don't actually know the tools.

rock
04-02-2012, 05:46 PM
Max or Maya feels like a Sumo wrestler while Blender feels like a ballerina - light, elegant, flexible.

hanskloss
04-02-2012, 06:07 PM
max users endured something like 10 years of pain wanting proper NURBS tools and a rendering engine before max became good. I know some of you have no idea what I'm even talking about and don't even know who Kinetix was.


Excuse my poor history, Yost developed the original 3ds max, then Kinetix, a division of ADSK published it. My bad. Did I redeem myself?:)

Speaking as a modeler I can say with full confidence that you don't need to be a genius to figure out how the modeling tools in Maya work and what not to do in order to avoid a sudden heart attack...lol:)

Switching to a different solution is not an option sometimes. I am also not going to quit my job simply because the company decided to invest in Maya.

Open criticism, valid complaints and concerns is what we are doing here. Cheers

Bitter
04-02-2012, 07:06 PM
Half the stuff people complain about with MR integration or whatnot, I don't even see a huge problem with in relation to maya's node based architecture approach.

Ouch, I will assume you haven't tried any new unexposed features to understand their benefit.

Like reducing time to render by a magnitude in some cases for complex scenes usually prohibitive before.

And while you can reach some of these features unintegrated, I keep going places that don't know anything about them because they aren't obvious and languish in slow renders and old settings. Then they spend a lot of money to migrate for no reason IF it was integrated correctly.

Robosity
04-02-2012, 07:22 PM
This thread is already starting to remind me of something.... Hmmmm. Ah yes, here it is!

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7&t=1011302&highlight=goodbye

sentry66
04-02-2012, 07:34 PM
Ouch, I will assume you haven't tried any new unexposed features to understand their benefit.

Like reducing time to render by a magnitude in some cases for complex scenes usually prohibitive before.

And while you can reach some of these features unintegrated, I keep going places that don't know anything about them because they aren't obvious and languish in slow renders and old settings. Then they spend a lot of money to migrate for no reason IF it was integrated correctly.


I'm aware of the unexposed features and use them when needed. It's odd they're unexposed. I mean, if they're too buggy or untested to bother to expose, then why do they implement other buggy or incomplete features like viewport 2.0?

so yeah, there are some good points made on the MR integration issues. However I'm just making the point that most complaints about it is actually just lack of understanding or experience.

Bitter
04-02-2012, 07:44 PM
They're unexposed because:

A: Integration means work. Autodesk apparently has one poor soul in charge of rendering and he's been busy with Viewport 2.0

B: New features mean more support calls

C: New features mean testing before release

D: Bugs that slip through are from inadequate testing. Unexposed features are not used. If you don't use it, how are you going to find bugs?

Unified Sampling has been in use at ILM since Tranformers 3. The Mill has been using Unified Sampling on projects since last Summer. Etc.

royter
04-02-2012, 09:56 PM
so yeah, there are some good points made on the MR integration issues. However I'm just making the point that most complaints about it is actually just lack of understandingor experience.
I completely disagree here, I think 99,9% of people complaining about MR4Maya and modeling tools are experienced people, beginners tend to think that they are the problem and not the software. Only experienced users can understand that they are not the problem but rather the software. I have personally 10 years of experience in Maya and Mental ray, and I am fully convinced that the rendering/modeling issue is completely caused by Autodesk's actions ("lack of professionalism" in my opinion). Neither Nvidia, neither the users (beginners or gurus) are to blame.

Hamburger
04-03-2012, 12:44 AM
ADSK has built up a culture of focus groups, user statistics & request to the point where they are becoming blind. They are just adding and piling code ontop of old bugs. As much as I hate to accept it, that's not going to change. Yet there's a much bigger problem than bugs to me: The lack/fear of innovation.

ADSK ME' latest mega suite is called "Ultimate". Reminds me of Microsoft coolness. Actually MS tries harder these days, now that they feel the pressure. They actually try to innovate with Windows 8.

You just can't innovate by measuring user statistics and evaluating requests on present tools and workflows. Cause users are burried into old habbits and they've accepted common limits.

Users only realize innovation when they see it somewhere else. Nobody dreamed of brushsculpting on millions of polygons till Zbrush introduced it. Nobody dreamed of fast GPU driven watersimulation on the desktop till sideFx showed it. Nobody dreamed of an UVless workflow till Ptex made it possible...

But these are the kind innovations you'll have a hard time introducing with an old, unstable core. So I don't expect much in terms of innovation from ADSK till the X86 computing era officialy ends. Cause till that happens, they won't feel like they must innovate and start from scratch.

Very interesting post.

Speaking plainly here, one would have to ask though, what is Autodesk's motivation for innovation? What would be the point? Looking at it objectively, they really only need to add a couple of features per year on their side, they don't need to push any boundaries because it is not worth the risk or the returns in this investment are simply not worth it. Maya is entrenched and they don't really need to attract new customers with some new revolutionary feature. Perhaps a few crossovers from the other packages but nothing that will get Joe Bloggs off the street and into the industry. This is the way I see it anyway.

Tying to say it nicely here, but it's in their best interests to go along a path that is walked at a leisurely pace.

Mobile Devices have awoken MS. Is there anything out there that could do the same in our industry? I doubt it.

slipknot66
04-03-2012, 01:19 AM
Ok, so no improvements in rendering then I guess... :shrug: as expected...


Yea, guess nothing new to the mental ray integration.

Vesuvius71
04-03-2012, 02:46 AM
Tying to say it nicely here, but it's in their best interests to go along a path that is walked at a leisurely pace.


if only they didn't break things each time they leisurely walk by. the last 2 year have given us new interface which as expected created only problem and offered nothing as far as productivity is concern, and viewport 2.0 which support a fraction of what it should and isn't even necessary in my opinion. sure there were some other additions mostly stuff autodesks purchase and stick in maya. very slow "progress"(?).

autodeks should sell maya to someone who care.

mustique
04-03-2012, 04:15 PM
...

Mobile Devices have awoken MS. Is there anything out there that could do the same in our industry? I doubt it.

People treat mobile ARM devices like toys, but they have serious power. Once the 64bit ARM architecture gets released (very soon) with integrated openCL supporting GPU's everything can happen. You could have 100 quadcore ARM cpu's for example with the same powerenvelope of a single high end intel cpu. Server vendors can't wait for this to happen and sooner or later it will change the way we create too. Powerfull, less hungry hardware and software without the patent walls of today. And no, we will not use just our fingers ;)

onetime
04-03-2012, 05:42 PM
You could have 100 quadcore ARM cpu's for example with the same powerenvelope of a single high end intel cpu. Because the current problem of having 23 threads sit idle as they watch the 24th thread blast away at 100% isn't aggravating enough!

I jest, but lack of multithreading is a serious problem. I'd rather focus on getting the most out of the processors we have, as opposed to just adding more processors that are going to sit idle during basic yet common tasks due to lack of software optimization.

mustique
04-03-2012, 05:55 PM
That kind of multithreading is gold in server environments and for renderers of the future of course, it's that openCL capable integrated gpu that would make most of the difference IMO.

Vesuvius71
04-06-2012, 02:52 AM
today was freelancing at a new place and it had two different versions of maya. both full with bugs. what to do... ask them to upgrade? ask them to install more version of maya in case that it not be broken? i could not select more than one animation curve at time. the others would disappear! keyboard shortcuts not working random. had to restart many to get frame selection to work. i have been using this software from maya version 2. it never was like this. if you thinking of learning maya keep thinking. is not good idea any more. maya she is dead. you screw yourself wasting the time with maya.

InfernalDarkness
04-06-2012, 03:33 AM
So it's Autodesk's fault that your clients have crappy computers, outdated software, and don't know how to manage their own assets? Which versions were you using? Which computer configurations were you working with? What GPU did the computer have in it? Is it Maya's fault that your clients don't know how to select, test, and tune their hardware as well?

Hey, quit using it then, Vesuvius. Nobody's making you use it, or making you choose clients that suck. It's not as though you personally paid for this client's versions of Maya, right?

For the record, my own main two clients also suck. No, Vesuvius, they really, really are the stupidest two people I've ever met in all my years. The company owner can't figure out how to forward attachments in an email. The company manager can't figure out how to scan paper documents to a .pdf, even though the printer has a "Scan to .pdf" button right on it. Imbeciles. Today, I had a 1-hour deadline for a project that I'd told them takes 80 minutes to render at a minimum.

But I make them get me the best hardware we can afford and do plenty of research before upgrading to newer versions of Maya, and also I don't uninstall my older working versions until the new version is proven to work as I need it to. I still have Maya 2009 installed; what's your excuse?

Vesuvius71
04-06-2012, 12:16 PM
as new freelancer at company i have not worked with before i am going to tell company to change software? to uninstall and install what I WANT? is that what you do as freelance?
what are you? some stupid idiot with all your stupid answer infernal darkenss? i don't give shit what you say and don't bother commenting again. maya is shit autodeks has ruined it and the only person that say that everything is fine is this imbecile fan boy infernal darkenss.

when i get call that they need maya expert to do job, i expect to go there sit down do work with software that work. instead i have two versions of maya so full of bugs that make me look slow bad and unproductive. this is maya today. 2 versions of maya. 2 years worth of software from autodeks unusable complete shit. a big thank you to stupid autodeks and programmers that make this maya so bad last several year.

it is not my fault. it is not computer fault. and company have 2 version trying to be ready for all possibilities. how many version should they have to make sure? 12 VERSION? maya version 2,3,4,5,6,7,9,2008,2009,2010,2011,2012? and when i go there they will ask me which version you like to work in? we have them all FOR YOU our lovely freelancer. can i get you a martini?


thank you.

lostparanoia
04-06-2012, 12:25 PM
also I don't uninstall my older working versions until the new version is proven to work as I need it to. I still have Maya 2009 installed; what's your excuse?

To be honest, Sho. Is this how you want your apps to work? wouldn't you much rather have it work like with almost all other software on this planet? when a new release shows up, it just works. there might be a few minor bugs in there but no actual showstoppers.
Every new version of maya has vast amounts of showstopper bugs. it's just not usable for it's purpose until 2 service packs later, and even then there are vast amounts of very annoying bugs that stick around for years on end. You only use maya for rendering, and luckily mental images (now NVIDIA) are very good at keeping the bugs out of mental ray. Autodesk, however screws everything up every time, without exception. I bet you don't see all these bugs because the majority of your work depends heavily on mental image's code and not autodesk's. I'm a generalist. I use everything in maya daily and I can tell you that it's a mess. a complete mess.
Just as an example: undo only works about 75% of the time when painting skin weights. And it's been like this for as long as I can remember. Do you have any idea how frustrating this is?

Vesuvius71
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
next time a company call me to freelance

company: "hi, we need you to come and work on project for next 3 weeks."
me: "of course. may i ask you what version maya you have?"
company: "we have both 2011 and 2012. why?"
me: "sorry. not interested in working in that versions. call me when you have other versions ready for me. goodbye."

m0z
04-06-2012, 12:50 PM
undo only works about 75% of the time when painting skin weights. And it's been like this for as long as I can remember. Do you have any idea how frustrating this is?


if it works anyway and isn't disabled in the prefs for whatever reason ;) :D

royter
04-06-2012, 03:17 PM
So it's Autodesk's fault that your clients have crappy computers, outdated software, and don't know how to manage their own assets? Which versions were you using? Which computer configurations were you working with? What GPU did the computer have in it? Is it Maya's fault that your clients don't know how to select, test, and tune their hardware as well?



I wonder if ther is one Maya modeler/renderer on earth who hasen't cursed the day Autodesk bought Maya. What's really weird, is that it's not the case with Max modelers/renderers.



when i get call that they need maya expert to do job, i expect to go there sit down do work with software that work. instead i have two versions of maya so full of bugs that make me look slow bad and unproductive..

I encountered the same situation at several occasions, where the max guys finished the job on time while me and other Maya users were always struggling late at night in dealing with bugs and other issues related to the stone age modeling/rendering pipeline.
And we have been lied by Autodesk several times, they promised that 2011 was the year where the rendering module was supposed to be fixes, nothing happened (not to mention development time of 2011), same for 2012 more lies, same for 2013 more lies, i really don't see why couldn't they be just honest with the general user.

InfernalDarkness
04-06-2012, 07:28 PM
(edited for rude content)

I use everything in maya daily and I can tell you that it's a mess. a complete mess.
Just as an example: undo only works about 75% of the time when painting skin weights. And it's been like this for as long as I can remember. Do you have any idea how frustrating this is?

@Paranoia: I very much understand where you're coming from. Despite our various differences and arguments, I know you're experiencing the brunt of Maya's dysfunctions, perhaps more than anyone because of your wider range of tasks.

But in my experience with most other software, there's very often something icky or poorly-done with every new version. Photoshop still doesn't natively support .exr files? STILL? Look at Vue for example (no, don't!), and a quick read into any Max forum will also contain tons of woes and gnashing of teeth. Softimage, Modo, and Houdini users as well.

But to be fair, I use Maya for modeling, texturing, lighting, dynamics, waterflow, and rendering. In this array of tasks Maya 2012 is rock-solid for me. I know it's not nearly the full spectrum of tasks though, and concede this point once again to you.


I wonder if ther is one Maya modeler/renderer on earth who hasen't cursed the day Autodesk bought Maya. What's really weird, is that it's not the case with Max modelers/renderers.

Here's one. And Max wasn't purchased by Autodesk, so that's why you don't see people flipping out about it.

And we have been lied by Autodesk several times, they promised that 2011 was the year where the rendering module was supposed to be fixes, nothing happened (not to mention development time of 2011), same for 2012 more lies, same for 2013 more lies, i really don't see why couldn't they be just honest with the general user.

Relax Roy, it's not a tween-wave pop band we're talking about. Autodesk has never, ever promised anything. They don't issue "promise rings". It's not a romance, it's a corporation. Maya and mental ray work fine for me in 2012, aside from a steep learning curve and many inefficient UI/workflow issues. It's not broken, although it may be annoying to use.

Buexe
04-07-2012, 01:06 AM
Before posting, please review the following:


Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.

refract
04-07-2012, 03:20 AM
I thought Kinetix was bought by Discreet,.. which was/ is a division of Autodesk?

mr Bob
04-07-2012, 08:57 AM
But in my experience with most other software, there's very often something icky or poorly-done with every new version. Photoshop still doesn't natively support .exr files? STILL? Look at Vue for example (no, don't!), and a quick read into any Max forum will also contain tons of woes and gnashing of teeth. Softimage, Modo, and Houdini users as well.

I can understand the posters frustration with Maya out of the box its pretty poor compared to other applications like Houdini which require no plugins at all for fx / lighting / rendering .My best advice is vote with your feet. If it doesn't do what you want it too.Use something else.

matzerium
04-07-2012, 04:27 PM
http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/index.html

Vesuvius71
04-07-2012, 06:57 PM
i have another "funny" story about maya. I had big problem with bug in early 2012. i sent bug report. a month or 2 later maya 2012 sp2 come out and fix problem. then.... many week later autodeks get in touch with me asking for more detail about bug from before maya sp2.
i think that was just rude and sarcastic. asking for details after the release of fix. or just show how unorganized they are.

the other thing that would make life easier with this very buggy software is a centralized place where you can see solution to known bug.
i waste too much time online searching for solution.
many time i think i find solution but it is not for the version that i am using.

if autodeks care they would list all known bug for each version with recommended solution.
or are they too ashamed to show to world (and to the big boss "Mr. Jim Autodeks") how many bug they have in maya. i know they have small list in documents. but the real bug list is much much bigger and changing every day. so a "live" bug list with recommended solution would show respect to users. until the bug is fixed (many years later when we are old and retired)

the "area" have people asking questions about bugs many time there is NO ANSWER! if you search with bing/google/yahoo you find answer in other web site and forums. but NOT in "area". the site that belong to autodeks for this reason. so they don't care? :banghead:

thank you.

stooch
04-07-2012, 09:57 PM
Max or Maya feels like a Sumo wrestler while Blender feels like a ballerina - light, elegant, flexible.

the problem is that a ballerina has absolutely 0 chance against a sumo wrestler. Thats why its on the sidelines, despite being free.

cgbeige
04-08-2012, 03:23 AM
I thought Kinetix was bought by Discreet,.. which was/ is a division of Autodesk?

I don't know the name Kinetix but I think you're thinking of Kaydara (Filmbox)

InfernalDarkness
04-08-2012, 03:53 AM
3D Studio MAX

was officially announced at Siggraph 1995 (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/3D_Studio_Max_Siggraph_Announcement) and shipped to users in April 1996. At the same time, the Autodesk Multimedia Division was rebranded as Kinetix, a division of Autodesk. Thus the full name of the official product was Kinetix 3D Studio MAX.

From the CGTalk wiki (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/3ds_Max_History).

Als
04-08-2012, 05:24 AM
Thank you for very useful & important discussion about history of 3D studio Max in tread called
MAYA 2013.
Documentation is a great thing in maya, but what I would like to see, is something like this for the list of bugs, plus in which version they appear (or don't).
Something like this:
http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/compare/
Also similar list for MAYA renderers, with what type of maya nodes they can render:
renderman 3delight vray maya software render mental ray
Fluids
particles
by types (blobs, etc)
Instances
ptex support
etc.
file formats (really not just sort of)
This would be very helpful.

As for the great new features for maya animation just shows the fact we know all along:
BIG studios dictate maya development. So I guess they are probably happy with this release.
I'd love to see renderman 3delight and mental ray etc to make texture format which could be rendered with any of the software.
And how about hybrid rendering, so that in the same pass you can render different objects with different renderers ? ;)

Please take out shareware and demo software out of maya.
There is so many dynamics engines we can take, but can one now byte the "bullet" and work fully with nStuff in 2013?

And please fix the bugs. It's not that difficult. Look how they did it for Google Maps 8-bit version for NES.
You just blow.


Als

Bitter
04-08-2012, 06:07 AM
Since other renderers require their product (Maya) as a plug-in, it's not really important for AD to list a comparison. It's not a competing product, it's an add-on from another vendor.

So other vendors like Chaosgroup or Pixar will list their own features.

Currently you can use a tiled mipmapped (cached) EXR to render out of everything (except Arnold which prefers .tx format) PTEX is also supported for mental ray, Renderman, and Vray.

Hybrid rendering has been part of mental ray for a long time, in fact you could use hardware shaders like CGfx and OpenGL before iRay was a gleam in nVidia's eye.

stooch
04-08-2012, 09:42 PM
And how about hybrid rendering, so that in the same pass you can render different objects with different renderers ? ;)


this doesnt always work, I tried using render layer overrides to choose different renderers per layer and i found that things like motion blur and various other features dont really match up when you are compositing. Displacements, etc. all introduce small offsets to the pixels.

Als
04-09-2012, 12:24 AM
Since other renderers require their product (Maya) as a plug-in, it's not really important for AD to list a comparison. It's not a competing product, it's an add-on from another vendor.


You are right, but if we (users) make such a list it would be really useful and extra help for freelance work. Maybe start with one vendor and ask others to fill in their specs?


Currently you can use a tiled mipmapped (cached) EXR to render out of everything (except Arnold which prefers .tx format) PTEX is also supported for mental ray, Renderman, and Vray.


What's the best way to convert map files or tif files to EXR?


Hybrid rendering has been part of mental ray for a long time, in fact you could use hardware shaders like CGfx and OpenGL before iRay was a gleam in nVidia's eye.

Well, not only MR, but I mean different renderers vendors hybrid ;)
Thanks a lot!


Als

Als
04-09-2012, 12:25 AM
this doesnt always work, I tried using render layer overrides to choose different renderers per layer and i found that things like motion blur and various other features dont really match up when you are compositing. Displacements, etc. all introduce small offsets to the pixels.

It would be for previz work, to get what each renderer is fastest at, and get good preview result, comp later. ;)


Al

Bitter
04-09-2012, 12:44 AM
I tried using render layer overrides to choose different renderers per layer and i found that things like motion blur and various other features dont really match up when you are compositing. Displacements, etc. all introduce small offsets to the pixels.

Renderers all use slightly different methods to sample an image. Strictly speaking, Renderman, 3delight, and mental ray's Rasterzier should be pretty close to one another with the exception of displacement.

What's the best way to convert map files or tif files to EXR?

imf_copy that comes with Maya (an nVidia tool) can do this for you and can be scripted. I would wait for the more recent version that comes with 2013 though for a few nice features. (I hope AD remembers to include the correct tools this time.)

refract
04-09-2012, 02:04 AM
No need to convert anything to Exr,.. and why would you,. there won't be any extra channels in there since its coming from a tif . Correct me if I'm wrong,.. I'm sure you guys will. :)

At work, we render out 16bit scanline Exr's from Vray, with the other channels 'included' in the Exr... such as Zdepth, mat id, obj id, AO, etc.... And Nuke was built around Exr's and loves them.
These files can get quite large...80mg or higher though.
Also with the linear workflow, it has the extra depth information,.. unlike a standard srgb.

And speaking of Linear workflow,.. Maya needs some better integration. We are still using gamma correction scripts

Bitter
04-09-2012, 02:15 AM
Because EXRs have a native caching technique that allows you to render with GBs of texture data effectively. Since it's universal across renderers and you're already using the format, it can simplify the pipe. (Other formats offer caching like Tiff but isn't used as often.)

EXRs are also assumed linear so you can forego the gamma correction for textures if done correctly.

You can see the preferred workflow on the elementalray.wordpress.com blog under colorspace: Preferred workflow.

Bitter
04-09-2012, 05:19 AM
Sidenote, we're actively working on a post to explain texture caching/tiling and usage in Maya for scenes.

This will carry over to 2013.

tropt
04-09-2012, 07:18 AM
@THExDUKE
Quote:
Interresting....so you just put a "windows" card into the macPro?

I've plonked a standard Gigabyte GTX570 into my mac pro. Running Lion, installed the latest nvidia drivers. Works fine without patching.
Cinebench openCL score on windows was 33.22 and 25.97 on the mac. Not bad.

refract
04-09-2012, 07:28 AM
Yeah, we're using the linear stuff,. and exr's. and before that, .rpf ... which is rich pixel format from autodesk. It just never caught on. Luckily Exr's did.

So are you showing some Alembic stuff? I'd be interested in that. :)

Als
04-09-2012, 09:46 AM
Because EXRs have a native caching technique that allows you to render with GBs of texture data effectively. Since it's universal across renderers and you're already using the format, it can simplify the pipe. (Other formats offer caching like Tiff but isn't used as often.)

EXRs are also assumed linear so you can forego the gamma correction for textures if done correctly.

You can see the preferred workflow on the elementalray.wordpress.com blog under colorspace: Preferred workflow.

Thanks!
Just to save some time for someone who wants to try this route:
To see exr files in viewport you need to load the plugin OpenEXRLoader
To render it with 3Delight get dll here:
http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=openexr_installation
then create openexr directory under 3delight and unzip the dll there.

Thanks again


Als

saycon2000
04-09-2012, 05:57 PM
Maya 2013 Docs
http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/index.html
http://docs.autodesk.com/MAYAUL/2013/ENU/Maya-API-Documentation/index.html

Mental ray 2013 Doc
http://docs.autodesk.com/MENTALRAY/2013/ENU/mental-ray-help/

What's new in Nvidia mental ray 3.10

royter
04-09-2012, 10:10 PM
it's not a tween-wave pop band we're talking about. .
You are right they are not, I think they are morphing towards a n outdated psychedelic hippi rock band doing fractal art in viewport 2.0 with their amazing 2013 fractal generator, no time for fixing bugs.


Autodesk has never, ever promised anything. They don't issue "promise rings".
Yes they do, just search the Maya 2010, 2011 or 2012 announcement forums, and you will see the same scenario again. usual disappointment then false promises by developers. Small example, when they released Maya 2011 they "forgot" to fix the gamma correction for color swatches, and they did mention that they would fix it in 2012, as usual 2012 released with the same bug, just check the 2011 thread everything is in there.


It's not a romance
Definitely not!


Maya and mental ray work fine for me in 2012
You are the only user I met who believes that, maybe all the rest are wrong and just investing stuff



aside from a steep learning curve and many inefficient UI/workflow issues. It's not broken, although it may be annoying to use.
it is broken and full of bugs you just don't want to face it, if there is too much users complaining about same issues year after year after year, then there is problem somewhere.

sentry66
04-09-2012, 10:39 PM
After reading over the release notes, there isn't tons of new things there Autodesk hasn't already mentioned.

Even still, I think it is a solid release with some really nice stuff in there. It just doesn't have the big glaring things people are currently wanting.

Hans-CC
04-09-2012, 11:26 PM
what i do believe its that Autodesk wants its that every body buy the 3 packages they own
witch its ridiculous from the point of view of the user!!

i doesnt picture my self modeling in max animating in maya and doing fx on xsi but that seems to be what they want.

H.

coccosoids
04-09-2012, 11:35 PM
After reading over the release notes, there isn't tons of new things there Autodesk hasn't already mentioned.

Even still, I think it is a solid release with some really nice stuff in there. It just doesn't have the big glaring things people are currently wanting.

I don't think that what people want are big glaring things!

coccosoids
04-09-2012, 11:39 PM
i doesnt picture my self modeling in max animating in maya and doing fx on xsi but that seems to be what they want.


It doesn't seem, it is a self-evident truth postulated by ongoing marketing strategies from Autodesk visible to anyone.

Kakkoii
04-10-2012, 01:41 AM
http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/movies/OGS_areaLight.html

That is nice to see, having area lights with shadows. This could be really helpful for getting the general lighting down of your scene, instead of doing a bunch of little test renders as you adjust. And a quick way to render out an animation with nice quality, not photo-realistic, but still nice.

royter
04-10-2012, 02:34 AM
http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/movies/OGS_areaLight.html

That is nice to see, having area lights with shadows. This could be really helpful for getting the general lighting down of your scene, instead of doing a bunch of little test renders as you adjust. And a quick way to render out an animation with nice quality, not photo-realistic, but still nice.

are mr "physical" and "portal light" supported?

Hamburger
04-10-2012, 03:56 AM
The new lights look great, hopefully not limited to 8 or whatever it is currently.

Anyone know what's going on with the modelling announcement? It says new "extrude tool" - but to me I think they may have got that mixed up with 2012 release?

The Extrude Tool now has Thickness, Offset and Divisions values to allow for greater precision.

I've already been using that for a year or two now? Unless something under the hood has been updated.

Kakkoii
04-10-2012, 04:25 AM
are mr "physical" and "portal light" supported?

I doubt it. But a portal and physical light is plugged in through an arealight anyways, but of course the lighting the area light gives off won't be truly representative of a portal/physical light.. I'm just talking about getting general shadow, light intensity and position. The rest would be minor tweaks.

One could probably create a MEL expression that converts the area light intensity to a value that's of similar intensity for a portal or physical light, further reducing workload by having an easy to apply expression though a shelf button.

ytsejam1976
04-10-2012, 09:33 AM
Watching this video, I don do other that think that the latest developments of maya are not at all interesting. In 2012, a new version called the 2013, but no use of modern techniques to explain or even to direct people on what is correct and that is, light with quadratic decay, portal light, translucency, which is only simulated and lamp intensity using the glow of a ramp shader, but I seem to be the version of Maya 5, but not the 2013 version. The craziest thing to me is the behavior of those who say that this forum is followed by the developers would seek to take into account what the average user and not large companies of CG, they want to. I think it's just a way to lighten the pill because if it were true that this forum is considered they would surely have noticed in doing this explanatory video, who made a jump of 10 years. Without criteria. Decide at this point to take away mia_material, the portal light exposurePhoto the sun & the Sky, why not serve any purpose. but your approach is the rampshader or light with linear decay. Why is it so important to the physical correct? Watch the video of 3dsmax, because it is important to have a scene with units corrected, watch the video of 3dsmax.

ahhhhhhhh I had almost forgotten.
Someone in Maya team, know the Linear Workflow?
Hellooooooo................. anybody home?

coccosoids
04-10-2012, 10:30 AM
...

Hey Dario, you and me both. It looks to me like they've just discovered openGL.

Ooo, aaa, Maya 2013! Now with a viewport!

The ramp shader is mostly for games and NPR, so it is pointless to comment on it if your main business is photorealism. But everybody has the same feeling: Autodesk is 'facesitting' anyone else except studios, and most of all, game studios. Everyone else not complaining is either pampered by custom tools developed in-house, or is using a very small and exclusive portion of maya. And even so, I am amazed at how can they be so complacent, since no portion of maya is up to date with the standards of 2013, and the standards of decency of any 3d program.

coccosoids
04-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Can you instance geometry to nHair, btw?

lostparanoia
04-10-2012, 12:11 PM
your approach is the rampshader or light with linear decay.

That video really cracked me up. :beer:
Can someone pleeeeeease give the people at autodesk a few clues about an actual proper workflow. god... I have no words... :eek:

$10 says it breaks if you actually use gamma correction and quadratic decay. :D

MMighe
04-10-2012, 09:14 PM
The new lights look great, hopefully not limited to 8 or whatever it is currently.
.

In 2012 eight is the default value but can be raised, just check the options of VP 2.0.

Hamburger
04-11-2012, 01:42 AM
I never, ever, ever thought I'd see the day where a major bullet point feature for a Maya release is a new color on a slider on an already existing tool!

http://download.autodesk.com/global/docs/maya2013/en_us/index.html
The Extrude Tool now has Thickness, Offset and Divisions values to allow for greater precision.Other tool improvements include the addition of a background colour for improved readability and the ability to use Ctrl and Shift to more quickly adjust values.

Surely it's true as the thickness, divisions and offset are already present in 2012.Ctl and Shift are already working in 2012 as well so new feature has to be for new background colors!


Bug list if anyone is interested:
http://download.autodesk.com/us/maya/pdfs/2013/maya_2013_release_notes_en.pdf

sacslacker
04-11-2012, 06:43 AM
Well as long as it's more stable, I don't mind not having huge features. nHair looks great and I'm AM hearing that it MIGHT be more stable. So, if they took a round to bug fix, kudos.

Oh and personally, the ramp shader has come in quite handy throughout the years and being able to view it in viewport 2.0 is actually kinda cool in my mind. Whatevs!

Hamburger
04-12-2012, 01:59 AM
It's out now for subscription customers. Downloading now to take a little peak.

Horganovski
04-12-2012, 03:19 AM
Thanks for the heads up, just installed here too. Good first impression, really like the 'do you want to copy preferences from old version' dialogue that popped up during install.

Cheers,
Brian

Hamburger
04-12-2012, 03:23 AM
Dagon, Mikael & dario will be happy to know Quadratic falloff is available for VP2!

Edit: ....with gamma correction. Disappointingly though lights are still capped @ 16 and the user color prefs are still broken (open border edges are extreme nuclear bright green).

DuttyFoot
04-12-2012, 04:15 AM
Good first impression, really like the 'do you want to copy preferences from old version' dialogue that popped up during install.

i thought maya always did that

cgbeige
04-12-2012, 05:00 AM
it always does that. And it's a bad idea to copy prefs. Create fresh ones and then copy shelves and scripts over to the new clean prefs dir

Horganovski
04-12-2012, 05:20 AM
Ah, ok, thanks for the info. I started with Maya 2011 so haven't had many new versions yet.

Playing around with nHair, seems pretty cool so far. Also did a quick test of exporting animation with Atom from a referenced character to a non referenced version of the same rig and it worked fine. Sweet.

Cheers,
Brian

Vinc
04-12-2012, 11:39 AM
Just have installed maya 2013.
I left all by default.
I open a v2012 scene i presently working on just to see. Nothing special, simple things.
At this stage, I dont see any difference.
I turn the view renderer to viewport 2. (as it's the only updat thing i think of)
Then all is hanging down, the texture assignment are wrong and change time to time.
And it's slooooooowwww....... unusable.
Return back to the classic maya viewport.... working well again.
WTF!
worst update ever.... really. Maya is dead!

vinc

oglu
04-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Just have installed maya 2013.
I left all by default.
I open a v2012 scene i presently working on just to see. Nothing special, simple things.
At this stage, I dont see any difference.
I turn the view renderer to viewport 2. (as it's the only updat thing i think of)
Then all is hanging down, the texture assignment are wrong and change time to time.
And it's slooooooowwww....... unusable.
Return back to the classic maya viewport.... working well again.
WTF!
worst update ever.... really. Maya is dead!

vinc

dont use old scenes...
2013 is stable and fast here...

Vinc
04-12-2012, 12:52 PM
dont use old scenes...
2013 is stable and fast here...

ah okk I see... just have to trash all preview work and all will be good.... brillant :lightbulb
:eek:

oglu
04-12-2012, 12:57 PM
thats an old rule... dont change software during a production..

Vinc
04-12-2012, 01:04 PM
thats an old rule... dont change software during a production..

dont worry, I know that, it was just for testing purpose.... and maya 2013 just didn't pass it.
I confirm the worst realize ever.

oglu
04-12-2012, 01:19 PM
take a second look... its much more stable here than 2010, 2011 and 2012

DuttyFoot
04-12-2012, 02:52 PM
dont use old scenes...
2013 is stable and fast here...

i am not sure what version of maya vinc did that older scene in, but isn't something wrong if you can't use your old or previous work in the new version without these kind of problems.

Vinc
04-12-2012, 03:07 PM
take a second look... its much more stable here than 2010, 2011 and 2012

stable? may be.... usable? not in vp2.
and a second look for what? none of the "new features" are usefull in any way for me. oh, just one... the UI change of the extrude tool.... :banghead:

i am not sure what version of maya vinc did that older scene in, but isn't something wrong if you can't use your old or previous work in the new version without these kind of problems.

The "old" scene went from the 2012 sp2.... if that is old, what about a 2011 one?
Just poly with blinn shader and texture.

lostparanoia
04-12-2012, 03:28 PM
i am not sure what version of maya vinc did that older scene in, but isn't something wrong if you can't use your old or previous work in the new version without these kind of problems.

Unfortunately, backwards compatibility often stand in the way for progress. I bet it's also a huge reason for autodesk to never fix all the half assed features. because it would break backwards compatibility.

In my opinion, progress is more important than backwards compatibility. You shouldn't have any problems importing old geometry into a scene created in the newer version though. if that's a problem, then we should really be worried.

mustique
04-12-2012, 05:29 PM
I prefer better/faster/more stable anything to backwards compatibility. To the point where I would welcome a reinvented/rewritten maya actually.

fghajhe
04-12-2012, 07:40 PM
I have noticed when loading a scene created in maya 2012 (or any previous version) into 2013 the textures do not update when editing the cordinates / UVs while in viewport 2.0. for any objects created in an earlier version of Maya. You have to reload the scene or not use VP2.0 to see any changes. Everything works for newly created objects. If you create a new cube you can see the uvs adjusting the texture, so this is obvisouly a legacy issue I am guessing.

Can anyone else confirm this? This seems like a major bug I hope there is a fix.

Edit. Another way to fix other than duplicating the object is to just run any uv command like merge uvs/ normalize etc and then the uvs will start to update in viewport 2.0. Weird...

Here is a screenshot to explain.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12844541/v20.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12844541/defualt.jpg

kuschel33
04-12-2012, 08:43 PM
What's the point of VP2 with area light preview when the final mental ray rendering doesn't match this VP preview? Tried it today (2 area lights with quadratic falloff, everything looked nice) and the rendering was wayyyyyyy too bright.

VanDerGoes
04-12-2012, 08:50 PM
It seems like vp2.0 has been conceived as a standalone hardware renderer, with no (or at least very limited) correlation with mental ray. Please someone tell autodesk how a rendering workflow should be in 2012.

InfernalDarkness
04-12-2012, 09:31 PM
What's the point of VP2 with area light preview when the final mental ray rendering doesn't match this VP preview? Tried it today (2 area lights with quadratic falloff, everything looked nice) and the rendering was wayyyyyyy too bright.

Are you using a linear lighting workflow (LWF)? Please post a screenshot and a render and perhaps it will help diagnose the issue.

That said, there's no reason to believe your render would look anything like VP2's display anyway. VP2 doesn't incorporate raytracing, GI, Final Gather, or any other rendering features; nor does the old Viewport renderer. Nor do any realtime renderers that exist, for that matter.

ytsejam1976
04-12-2012, 09:42 PM
I have nothing to talk about the VP2 because frankly I do not care about seeing the shadow, light or whatever, these are things to previz for VFX and not for design or architectural detail high with millions of polygons. I would prefer mental ray work better, in fact I wish it was integrated. I wish that there were also native lights instead of the conneting lightshader for every light in my scene. All things that AD is not interested, but that interest me, unfortunately. So step to VRay and then pass to something else, because I'm sick of:
New release of maya no integration with mental ray. New release of mental ray, but unusable materials because you can not connect bump normally but like OLD DGS bump COnnection. As in the BSDF shader.
Another one: How many material we have inside Maya to blows with each other?
A small cut, would not hurt.

mercuito
04-12-2012, 10:52 PM
Here's a little guide for using ptex in 2013:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=1045919

Ash-Man
04-13-2012, 12:10 AM
I have noticed when loading a scene created in maya 2012 (or any previous version) into 2013 the textures do not update when editing the cordinates / UVs while in viewport 2.0. for any objects created in an earlier version of Maya. You have to reload the scene or not use VP2.0 to see any changes. Everything works for newly created objects. If you create a new cube you can see the uvs adjusting the texture, so this is obvisouly a legacy issue I am guessing.

Can anyone else confirm this? This seems like a major bug I hope there is a fix.

Edit. Another way to fix other than duplicating the object is to just run any uv command like merge uvs/ normalize etc and then the uvs will start to update in viewport 2.0. Weird...

Here is a screenshot to explain.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12844541/v20.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12844541/defualt.jpg

I belive this might be fixed by running the MEL
ogs -reset
if that still dosnt fix it, please PM me
Hope this helps

tropt
04-13-2012, 01:31 AM
I can't wait to spend $4000 on this new service pack for Maya

Horganovski
04-13-2012, 01:46 AM
Excuse my ignorance as I've really not done much with Maya hair/fur yet, but I'm confused that the Help says nHair will not render in Mental Ray, but when I try it here it seems to work? Is something going on behind the scenes (converting to polys automatically or something like that) or is that an improvement in Mental Ray with Maya 2013?

What I'd ultimately like to do is to import some curves from ZBrush fibermesh, add that to an animated mesh and render fur with nHair. Not sure if this is a realistic proposition. I tried using Maya fur and adding that directly to the mesh but it gives really bad results at the UV seams on the (cat) model, no matter how I try to hide them.

Cheers,
Brian

fghajhe
04-13-2012, 01:47 AM
@Ash_Man

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately that does not make a difference.

Is anyone else having this issue?

Here is a simple .obj file.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12844541/obj.obj

If I import this into 2013, assign a texture, enter viewport 2.0 and start moving the uvs around in the editor I dont see any updates to the texture on the object. If anyone else wants to download and see if they have this issue it would be great.

I am curious to see if this is a widespread issue with 2013 or something specific to my hardware.

DuttyFoot
04-13-2012, 03:24 AM
here is a new heat map video

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/stevenr/maya_2012_highlight_new_heat_map_skinning