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hrgiger
11-13-2003, 08:48 PM
I just posted to the Newtek forums to help someone do the effect where the camera moves around a scene and freezes everything. I'm sure there are different solutions that people have come up with (and probably better) but for this way, you don't actually have to freeze everything in the frame, things can still be in motion, you're just taking multiple snapshots of the same frame....

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13650

NanoGator
11-13-2003, 09:07 PM
Couldn't Motion Mixer be used in place of the rig here? *tries to remember how MM worked...* Seems like you could grab the motion of everything except teh camera, then 'edit' it together into a time line.

hrgiger
11-13-2003, 09:36 PM
Maybe? It seems I'm about as up on MM as you are NanoGator...:)

NanoGator
11-13-2003, 10:52 PM
Well, I did a brief brief exploration of that idea. It didn't work with particles heh.

Is it possible to bake particles so that something like motion mixer will work with them?

Anyhoo, I think it's got a good shot of working. Seems as though it'd be a simpler setup, too.

Carm3D
11-14-2003, 12:59 AM
There's a plugin specifically desgined for this effect (bullet-time).

3D TimeWarp. SkinDeep also looks cool.

TuffLittleUnit (http://www.tufflittleunit.com/)

I've used neither so I couldn't say how good they are.

pelos
11-14-2003, 06:48 AM
you can do it right out of the box, is kinda triky, but herre we go,

also work with hypervoxels

you need to know how much time this warp (or frozen time) will be,

example, 2 second, so the camera turns around "tryniti"
now how many frames per sec you have? say 30, that means
you will be frozen the time 60 frames right?

now you need 60 cameras, each one will be placed in the frame corresponding to the principal camera (you can do this with the trick of parenting in place on/off and copy the key frame)

now render every thing as normal, and take 1 photo of each camera,
so now you have 1 video and 60 pic,
go to any kind of video editor, and set the 60 pics where you want the frozen time.
video, 60 pic, more video

Carm3D
11-14-2003, 08:59 AM
I think he wants "time" to slow down and speed up organically.. That might be tricker right out of the box.

Shinova
11-14-2003, 09:44 AM
And placing 60 cameras, even in a 3d program, is kinda, well, a hassle.;)

wizlon
11-14-2003, 12:16 PM
When a particle motion is saved, playback speed is then available as an option, if this were envelopable then this effect would be a breeze. is there any way currently to access this in the graph editor maybe via an expresion or MC?

Kvaalen
11-14-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Shinova
And placing 60 cameras, even in a 3d program, is kinda, well, a hassle.;)

I once created a plugin to do this. It was pritty cool and gave you lots of control, but the hassle isn't placing the cameras but rather having to render, save with a correct name, switch cameras, and do that many times (2 seconds, 60 frames, is pritty short. You usually want more) ...

I tried to create a plugin to do that too but I couldn't. :shrug:

So I never released it. :hmm:

If ever there will be a way to render one frame from each camera it would be cool. :buttrock:

hrgiger
11-14-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Shinova
And placing 60 cameras, even in a 3d program, is kinda, well, a hassle.;)

If you look at my scene setup from that link above you'll see I have 50 cameras around the scene. I could have probably used less. That gif I have in that link above is only showing every third frame for the gif optimisation sake. You can see the motion is quite smooth.
Was it a hassle? A little. Does it give great Results? Definately.

Besides, I bet it was a lot more hassle to set up the few hundred real cameras when they made the first matrix but that didn't stop them from doing it...

I say whatever works....

Dreamwave
11-14-2003, 06:18 PM
doesn't this work:

make keyframes on for example frame 60 and frame 360 for the particles...Can't you just spin the camera around it then with only making keyframes for camerapositions?

I don't have much experience with this yet, but this is how I would do it...I guess ;)

Nimrodicus
11-14-2003, 06:22 PM
Great "mini" tut HRGIGER.

I like the idea of taking "real world" approaches to solving FX problems in software. Good way to approach duplicating photographic/film effects as well.

***long post alert – sorry I tend to be long-winded***

Here’s another approach or 2 one might consider in creating this effect:

Haven’t really tried this but…”I wrote a song about it like to hear it?hear it go…”

Another way of doing this effect in the real world if the equipment existed would be to use a high speed camera (ever seen the “bullet passing through an apple” footage?) that not only filmed the splash at high speed (say 2400 fps?) but also whipped around the scene at high speed as well. Rather than setting up 50-60 different cameras to simultaneously shoot the same scene from different angles, you could take just one camera and whip it around/thru your scene so fast, that everything else appeared to be standing still, or at least moving verrrry slowly (see the movie Clockstoppers, it’s harmless entertainment).

Now how would we do this in Lightwave? How about leaving all the splashing motion intact, and instead of worrying about freezing it, saving out a separate version of the scene, then changing the frames-per-second for your scene to a realllly high number (2400 fps?) to simulate filming with a high speed camera then stretching keyframes for the entire scene if nessa. For rendering the scene at standard speed, just use skip frames (e.g. render every 100th frame of a 2400fps scene for 24fps equivalent) or use the original scene, and to render the extreme slo-mo, set the start/end frames to that particular group of frames and render each frame. Not a 100% how changing the frames-per-second in LW on-the-fly affects particle motion that has already been calculated, nor how it translates in terms of particle velocities etc. I don’t have access to LW as I write this and will have to test it when I get home. If this technique is do-able (again I haven’t really played with this to see how it affects things) it would have the added benefit of still having SOME motion to the splash or whatever, just very slowly, which IMHO would add to the realism, or at the least be an interesting effect.

Another approach:
Make the splash out of sprayed-then-shape-refined points in Modeler, using the points as Hypervoxels, & use bones/Morph Maps to control the points’ motion (I can even think of some crude ways to control their motion using multiple animated image maps) & then simply control the speed of the splash Hypervoxels w/ keyframes etc. This would of course mean “hand-crafting” the splash motion instead of calculating it mathematically, sounds rather tedious but hey, wouldn’t be the first time it’s been done. Think old-skool.

Still another approach:
S/up the splash using particle emitters and again “hand-craft” the splashing motion by having the particles move along multiple wind-paths (apply Wind to the particles where the wind follows defined paths – RTM regarding how to set wind up on paths) and then play with controlling the particle speed by altering the wind speed/force over time. Using motion/particle blur may help with the “jittering” you sometimes get when rendering PFX where the particles have come to standstill.

Even if these methods aren’t 100% doable, hopefully they’ll spur some creative thinking or be usable for something else. And of course HRGIGER’s method, which is basically a software interpretation of the “slice-of-life” effect used in the original Matrix will work just dandy!

Regards!

pelos
11-14-2003, 06:38 PM
ohh sorry, i thougt you want a frozen time,
well the way of doing this, is the same way they did the trinyti effect in real life, now if you dont have a plugin you can still
slow down and make it fast againg but you will have to calculate the the speed and place of the each 60 camera,

actualy is not a hazle, come on how many time we see a scene with more that 100 light for fake radiosity, or a character, as ACS4 with so many nulls. i know is true, that will be 10,000 easier if we have that plugin.

there is a plugin like that but is for explocion explode 4d, or something like that i canoot remember the name, (flay.com) in this plugin you can create a warp of the timeand control the motion, but was only for the exploted object.

now that i thing about it, you dont need to have 60 cameras, if you want you can also animate the models insted the camera, just do the normal animation, and then expand the key frame where the time warp will be, the problem with this, is the blur,

wolrey lab have a plugin for this, i just dont remember the collection.

Wongedan
11-14-2003, 07:09 PM
no need

use one only

artstorm
11-14-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by pelos
wolrey lab have a plugin for this, i just dont remember the collection.


That's objblur from the Polk Collection. Works really nice for these kinds of effects to freeze motionblur at a certain frame for an object and then rotate the camera around.
Unfortunately I havn't got it to work with characters that I move around with bones. Anyone got that to work? I don't think the plugin gets notified of the bonedeformation.

artstorm
11-14-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by pelos
wolrey lab have a plugin for this, i just dont remember the collection.


That's ObjBlur from the Polk Collection. It works really nice for these kind of effects. It has an frozen in time option so you can freeze the object with motionblur on a certain frame and move the camera around.

Unfortunately I havn't got it to work with characters that I move around with bonedeformation. I guess the plugin doesn't get notified of the bonedeformation.

Nimrodicus
11-16-2003, 04:35 AM
Ok I played around with some of the ideas I mentioned in my prior post.

Changing the frame rate of an existing animation turned out to be rather useless however I was able to create the effect using a variation of the same concept (simulating a high-speed camera in LW).

Even if your particle motion has already been tweaked to perfection you can try this, but for the technique to really work well the scene should probably be planned out ahead of time:

Take the existing particle motion and save it out to file(s) (*.pfx). Apply the motion file(s) to the emitter(s). Set the number of total frames for the animation to an exorbitantly high number - I had to use the max 32767 # of frames in my tests. Bring up the FX Properties panel & change playback speed of your previously saved motion file to a fraction of it's former speed - you can use fractions of a percent if nessa (e.g. 0.5%). Be forewarned this may produce a verrrry large motion file depending on the number of frames involved and how much you need to slow down the particles motion. The idea of course is that you want to slow down the particles motion to the point that when playing back the frames/motion at normal speed, they appear be at a virtual standstill. If the particle motion has needed to be slowed down so much that they really haven't gotten to the positions you need to "film" them at by the last frame (e.g. frame # 32767) you may need to set your *.pfx motion playback to start based on keyframing, then keyframe the playback start to a negative keyframe - this will give you many more keyframes for the particles to reach the point you need them to.

After all the above, just setup your camera motion for the whole scene. You may need 2 versions of the scene if you had to start motion playback on a negative frame #. To render the particle motion at normal speed, just use skip frames in render options. For the slo-mo render just the frames you need. Downside of course is that this still doesn't produce the splash-slowing-to-a-stop effect on its own, but with effort, you could accomplish this thru careful editing in something like Adobe Premier or After Effects (I believe there are time speed-up slow-down functions avail for both of those). You would simply need to make sure that the beginning sequence of frames for the effect were rendered in high enough quantity or "resolution" if you will, for the effect to work. Or, after initial renderings, you could simply go back and render a few extra frames to be inserted into the animation to achieve the slowdown.

Sidebar - wouldn't it be nice if you could "flag" all/only the specific frames/groups-of-frames you wanted rendered? Sort of frames-to-render list of sorts. You could achieve the slowdown that way. Or is there a way to do that that I don't know about? Hmmm...

Haven't tried the ObjBlur plugin in the Polk collection, but if that works on PFX it would be awesome. I'm thinking that's an older plugin so not sure if it would work on particles in LW 7.5 or not. If someone has a chance to test that please post your findings. Frozen motion-blur would be way cool methinks!

Cheers!

New
11-16-2003, 01:13 PM
You can render the scene at 250 fps for example and then you reproduce it at 30. I dont know if it work with particles.

See Teledonia in action. (http://newalpha.scenesp.org/gfx/forums/bullet.avi)
60k divx

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