Sketch & Toon questions

[LucentDreams]

In many ways better then flash export, you even have the ability to render frames into seperate level much like many 2D animators do when using streamline and illustrator to prepere their drawing for flash.

Main reson Direct flash export isn't available in Version one was SDK issues especially with MX 2004 coming out soon. SVG SWF and perhaps a few others will be planned for either a 1.x or 2.0 release, didn't want to hlod the app out of the market simply because SWF export and such were going to take a long time. I'd expect to see a small point upgrade for free that mainly includes a few bug fixes (if there are any left) maybe some coherence improvements, and some additional export formats.

The illustrator output is rock solid imo.

[flingster]

it just keeps getting better...
kai...you naughty boy...i remember you saying to me in another thread when i was bashing on about illustrator export...cos its vector!!! bad boy...:shame:

[ThirdEye]

Keep in mind our NDA's are as big as an elephant, flingster, sometimes we'd like to say a lot of things but we simply can't.

[flingster]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
Keep in mind our NDA's are as big as an elephant, flingster, sometimes we'd like to say a lot of things but we simply can't.


yeah i know....i'm ok with it believe me...i'm just winding him up...its my turn...being as you guys must crack up at some of the stuff i post knowing thats its coming up just around the corner...
kinda goes to prove how well maxon and you guys actually keep things underlid.:beer:

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by flingster
it just keeps getting better...
kai...you naughty boy...i remember you saying to me in another thread when i was bashing on about illustrator export...cos its vector!!! bad boy...:shame:

Hehe well there are types of vector exports too, and while we could have had one like the currently available plugin and such, nothing beats building on after building an awesome line renderer.

But yeah a biggy was the fact that I was under NDA

[LucentDreams]

For questions on 8.5 and such keep them here http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100152

Will keep this thread specifically about Sketch and Toon. :)

I'll merger the threads with questions already asked into here ;)

So, uhm well Ask away.

[flingster]

(oops sorry got confused there for a minute and answered kai in another thread...:shrug: )

any brush controls?

what line controls are there?

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by flingster
(oops sorry got confused there for a minute and answered kai in another thread...:shrug: )

any brush controls?

what line controls are there?


Just look at the material editor scrolldown bar on my 1600x1200 res monitor ;) There are really a TON.

[mikeh64]

Thanks for the info...

You said "especially with MX 2004 coming out soon" in regards to possible holdups of certain features in Sketch/Toon..

MX2004 has been shipping for 2-3 months already.

Just didn't know if you knew it was out already.

M

[tjnyc]

Can we combine SnT with the Vector Motion blur?

[gginther]

are there any Sketch & Toon animation samples yet? I'm interested to see how the shading and lines work on an object in motion

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by tjnyc
Can we combine SnT with the Vector Motion blur?

lemme try, but i do really think so.

[rob rhodes]

right this is going to sound really, really stupid but what is sketch/toon? is it a plugin - sounds like something id be interested in as the cell render in c4d isn't really cutting the mustard!
cheers rob

[pit]

Just look at the material editor scrolldown bar on my 1600x1200 res monitor There are really a TON.

:eek: a TON won´t do - incredible!!

[flingster]

so how do we feel it stacks up to finaltoon now?

[LucentDreams]

thats not even the most expanative image. Shouldhave shown something like the thickness tab.

First of all there are three user levels in Sketch and Toon. Simple Basic and Advanced. Simple qould allow image like you'd see from many typical line renders or basic cel shaders. Inermediate is more like some of the more enhanced line renderers out there like Toonshade with all of its paintFX abilities, or Final toon. Advanced is sort of on a level of control all on its own, nothing out there compares.

Okay so for controls we have THICKNESS, OPACITY, and COLOR which are your three basic elements right. Each of those three elements has a MODIFIER list. Depending on your level of control, you can have anywhere from a single slider control for each (in simple) to 16 modifiers for colour and opacity, and 14 modifiers for thickness. One modifier to note in all three is the coffee modifier. this lets you do coffee scripts just like Mesh surgery does, but for controlling how thaty elemnt is calculated or affected.

So for instance one can control thickness of a line by vertex map, screen angle, length of the stoke, distance along the stroke, noise, and on and on.

Theres the ability to CLONE a line with variations, great for creating rough sketch looks as you can have multiple lines that are all slightly different.

One can ADJUST a line so that it could be offset, or scaled even rotated, so the object generating a line is totally seperate form the line itself.

You can DISTORT lines, which is one of my faves, allowing you to take strigh lines and add some curve to them and such, Ill post an example of this later. You can get really wobbly lines using this function, but there are more ways then one to get a wobbly line in Sketch

Theres ANIMATE, which is a little misleading at first, don't think its the only way to animate controls, everything is in the AM so like anything else in the AM it can all be animated, or used in expresso, one can drive the colour of a line with the speed of an object if they wanted. This ANIMATE option is designed for DRAWING your lines, so if you want to draw out the individual lines on a shape, you have that ability, theres n example on the website with the Hypa TV logo.

Finally there is STROKEs. Strokes allow for more consistent results and extra capabilities, like FILTERING, so some of those super small lines you may not want to show up at all will be filtered out, effects will apply better along the whole line, CAPS like round or flat or arrows or even the ability to make your own custom caps, JOINTS, like miters, bevels or round joints, OVERSHOOTS, which basically extend the start or end of the line further to create a loose sketch feel, and PATTERN, basically allowing you to create a repeating pattern along the line like dotted lines, or perferated lines, or dot dot dash lines or whatever you want, all using a simple PATTERN editor rathern then messign with opacities and such.

Is that enough control? And I haven't even started on the different ways to detect and create the lines.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by flingster
so how do we feel it stacks up to finaltoon now?


They can't be really compared imo, S&T kicked finalToon's ass in its earl alpha stage some months ago IMO, it's far better than the Cebas solution. Anyway YES it can work with VMB too.

http://thirdeye.cgcommunity.com/test.mov

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by mikeh64
Thanks for the info...

You said "especially with MX 2004 coming out soon" in regards to possible holdups of certain features in Sketch/Toon..

MX2004 has been shipping for 2-3 months already.

Just didn't know if you knew it was out already.

M

Sketch has been in development for almsot a year, and MX 2004 while available isn't "complete" to say the least, (don't even get me started on 2004 or its EULA, users are screwing themselves if they buy 2004 with its current EULA)

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
They can't be really compared imo, S&T kicked finalToon's ass in its earl alpha stage some months ago IMO, it's far better than the Cebas solution. Anyway YES it can work with VMB too.

http://thirdeye.cgcommunity.com/test.mov

VMB will work with it only if its not a post effect I believe. Sketch and toon while its main settings are in the post effect window, is NOT a post effect by default. THere is a setting to render it as a post effect, giving you the advantage of multipass rendering of the plines seprate form the rest of the image, but otherwise they are true lines in the 3D space, and thus should render with DOF and MB.

[LucentDreams]

by the way, to start a sketch and toon render is as simple as openeing any scene, selecting file/new material/ Sketch material in the material manager. By default your entire scene will have a basic line style with a white BG and flat white shading on all objects even though they have materiasl applied. Then its just a matter of customizing. But I haven't seen any other app that can render a simple line render of an entire old scene in one click/drag/release.

[flingster]

so edge effects?
done via...distort or something.

also gradients on fills...controls

and does it alter options for AA?

what about dealing with lights and changes to bare in mind..and also with repect to say shadows?

paper types and hatching types...presume this is a coffee thing then?

man this is mouth watering stuff...

[LucentDreams]

http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/materiallevels.jpg
heres a rough idea of the difference in controls between simple and advanced. simple I fit all in one 1600 high AM, even intermediate needs two AMS 1600 high to show all settings at once, advanced I'd think three or four. And thats before you turn on individual modifiers who all have controls.


Think of it this way, basic npr systems especially cel shaders, are like you basic lowest end varsion of a car, Final render Toonshade and a few others are like the car with Air conditionaing a CD player and poer doors, Sketch in advanced is like the car with all that as well as the built in DVD player, onstar system, convertible, laptop console, and a prtable fridge, you name it.

[JIII]

so this is a big enough step will people come to C4D JUST to use the NPR system?

I mean if its that much better, are we going to see a migration to C4D just because of this module?

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by flingster
so edge effects?
done via...distort or something.

Could you specify what you mean by edge effects? Color thickness both have a from edge option, so you can have a line say fade out as it gets away from the edge of the object. Is that what you mean?


also gradients on fills...controls

Fills is a different thing, fills are controlled through threee different areas, I'd be careful caling them fills. There is the post effect which has two options, a quantise or a gradient diffusion (with colourize option) and then there is an actual Cel shader with oodles of gradients for eveything, colour diffusion, shadow, on and on.


and does it alter options for AA?

Yes there is a seperate AA though if not in post effect mode, both Sketch and C4D AA will affect lines, in post effect only Sketch AA will affect. If sketch AA is turnedoff in a normal render then it will use C4D AA.


what about dealing with lights and changes to bare in mind..and also with repect to say shadows?

Lights in what respect, the shaders or the lines, remember they are two sperate things, I can have lines on a normal raytraced scene or even GI scene. The four shaders all have lights and shadow options (thats right even the art shader has a shadow option, worley G2 doesn't offer that in their art shader)

Lights can aso affect thickness colour or opacity of a line.


paper types and hatching types...presume this is a coffee thing then?

an overall paper effeect is done through the global settings located in the Post effect window, very simple texture alpha like in final toon and some other systems.

Hatching, well theres the hatch shader, one of the best I've seen for control, you can get a different kind of limited hatch effect using the Spot shader. Make any texture or image you want and use it as the hatch mark responds to lights and shadows etc.

None of this stuff requires coffee. coffe is for really really advanced control. I've seen a few scripts that will come with the CD I think, very cool, but seriously haven't found much of anything I couldn't do without scripts.

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by JIII
so this is a big enough step will people come to C4D JUST to use the NPR system?

I mean if its that much better, are we going to see a migration to C4D just because of this module?

I hope so. And as mentioned before, maxon's ware that AI isn't the only export format that should be supported so that will be a definite focus and a few users like myself have asked about direct bridges to DIP software packages as well.

There aren't a lot of technical examples on the site, I"ll ask one of the more technical artists if I can post a few of his examples, I could see a lot of technical illustrators migrating over for sure, I mean the culling controls, seperarte visible and hidden line control its amazing how much control there is.

And thats the big key. For many users, the abilities of Final toon would be satifsfactory, Sketch however gives you that ability and allows far more control over each aspect.

Flinster also asked about brushes, if you can make a brush in BP and PS, it may take a while to get use to how sketch works, but you can recreate them in Sketch, I think quite a few of the BP brushes will be available as sketch materials on the CD, I've seen one for sure.

BTW flingster, very good questions, you've been doing a lot of research I can see ;)

[LucentDreams]

btw only system I know of at all that supports alphas, thats right you can use alphas to define lines and strokes (though strokes can be really slow and ucky with alphas so lines are better.)

not this doesn't touch right on the green galaxy because I used soft alpha and the Sketch lines are applied to the absolute I believe.

http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/alpha.jpg

[flingster]

holy moly...
alphas...hidden line controls...heheh...still can't get rid of my big grin!

edge effects? well i was talking about silhouette or noise influencing edges...and lines i guess...but it all sounds possible by what youre saying.
those advanced modifiers on brightness/thickness and opacity look sweet to say the least..

lights and shadow options for shaders...cool.
it was a general question really..in relation to shaders or lines...and controls i may have available to me..trying to get my head around what your describing really...think i got the concept.

what about documentation for this hows that working?

btw hatching and gradient options sound very nice.

thanks for taking the time kai to explain the finer techie details some of which i need to get my head around...i just can't wait to get my hands on this thing...

as for the brush thing...just run it by me again...does this mean i could use a photoshop/bodypaint type brush and use it for my line creation..or do i need to create the brush in sketch/toon...and if so how? tankssssss

:eek:

[LucentDreams]

well maybe for V2 there could be a direct translation for BP brushes to Sketch, but not as of yet, you will have to recreates everything. But you'd use the same balck and white image you would use toe make a PS brush, then the same concepts apply, spacing, scatter, rotation. Basically you can REcreate any PS of BP brush.

[flingster]

so its a no brainer then...:thumbsup:

what about documentation for this...has that been mentioned?
cheers

[AdamT]

They've been working on the manual for a while, so I suspect it will be up to Maxon's usual high standard. I haven't seen a draft though.

[LucentDreams]

Uhm there will be a manual and PDF, lots and lots of images so far that I have seen, documentation is part of the reason its not quite available yet its not totally finished. There will also be some videos much like BP2.

There will be a seperate thrid party CD available sometime december hopefully early december covering pretty much anything else.

[LucentDreams]

Oh, they also asked us testers to help make a very thorough FAQ section for the manual.

That should help users get into it a little faster.


but serioulsy if you have familairity with the material system you know most of the interface.

[flingster]

oh did i forget to tell you i still have a big grin! heh heh.
maxon ya made my month...fantastic..:beer:

[AdamT]

Here's a little Sketch render of the previous fbx animation:

http://www.3danvil.com/FBX_Yea_Sketch002.mov

The lines are kind of jittery because I used strokes. I did another version without strokes and the lines were rock steady.

Notice the motion lines at the end? :)

[flingster]

nice get the feeling its very slick.

btw adamt...nice anim...v funny...
:beer:

[pit]

Just wondering....how does S&T deal with S&H?. Guess one has to convert hair to polys then - right? It´s late - my brain´s tired ... I´ve sent my order... I´m happy...will dream of fbx and toons.

[LucentDreams]

good questions, Sketch works eatremely well with splines, including multi splines, so shave and hair department if you use the splines render really well and reasonable speed. so you use shave to create the hair and animate i, then render with sketch instead of shave.

[flingster]

kai whats the reason for reflection not being supported?
i think you mentioned it in another thread...or did i miss read..

[LucentDreams]

Time mainly, They worked onboth, and refraction was working pretty quickly but reflection was giving some trouble and just was taking too long to hold the product. One note refraction is pretty slow use with care partciularily in larger scenes. Also it doesn't require any special settings or anything, just put an object with Sketch behind an object thats transparent with refraction and viola

[flingster]

cheers...just seemed a strange omission really..
thanks for clearing it up.

[Continuumx]

I went in debt and ordered the update to 8.5 and Sketch and Toon.

I use a program called Sketchup primarily for its Sketch render capability- like nothing else on the planet except Final Toon. Then Sketch and Toon for cinema!

A whole other word of rendering is going to explode at the seams with this release-

I have been hoping someone would create a plugin that would give me real sketch render in Cinema!

Now I wonder how long it will be until the product ships!

Thanks guys for the images and animations, the little lady animation is in another class of cgi animation! The two worlds of CGI - NPR and PR - who would have guessed!

Tyrone:) :) :)

[tonfarben]

I ordered the update and S&T yesterday. :buttrock:
One Question: Those motion lines, when do they occur? is it controllable like, if the distance of beginning and end of a motion in an intervall of time is higher than x meter, a motion line will appear automatically?
How do the motionlines look? simple curve, crossed curve, doublecrossed courve and a bit of outline of the moving object i can imagine. Custumizeable, Combineable?

sorry for my bad english, I´m from germany....

[obeardy]

Originally posted by flingster
cheers...just seemed a strange omission really..
thanks for clearing it up.

Reflections are not something that you can add in a few minutes to a line render, in fact, the only system (not "toon shader" which are just glorified fresnel shaders) that support reflections is FinalToon and afaik these have their limitations...

Think about it for a moment, silhouette based lines are generated from the view of the camera, if you got a reflection ray it could come from anywhere, so you need a whole set of new lines, now, combine that with the options of Sketch! you need a whole new set of lines, and whole new set of stroke paths and a whole load more data, from any view point :eek: not so easy now is it :p

[ThirdEye]

Thanks for the reply David, btw now you people know who you have to thank for S&T ;)

[flingster]

yeah i know what you mean..but refraction was in...yet reflection not...now seemed odd to develop refraction and include but not include reflection...thats all.

btw...illustrate! and eva also have reflections...as far as i can remember.



:beer:

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by tonfarben
I ordered the update and S&T yesterday. :buttrock:

Congratulations


One Question:
Sure its only one?


Those motion lines, when do they occur?
Whenever you set the settings to tell it to render


is it controllable like, if the distance of beginning and end of a motion in an intervall of time is higher than x meter, a motion line will appear automatically?

Yes that is one way, There are two options, Velocity and Trail. Velocity is exactly what you speak of, bsically you choose how many metres it must travel in one frame to create a motion line. Then you set how many frames back it looks for the motion line, the more frames the longer the line.


How do the motionlines look?
Really good in my opinion.


simple curve
YES


crossed curve
YES


doublecrossed curve
SURE


and a bit of outline of the moving object i can imagine.
Of course


Custumizeable
mmm well depends on how customizable you mean, you mean your own shape? NO.

HAHA just kidding, You think we'd forget something? if you can draw a shape you can make it a motion line.


Combineable?
Hmmm another good question, man you sure are demanding a lot. I'm just grateful maxon's met your needs with ease ;) Hows this for combinable? motion lines example (http://cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/misc/mlbig.mov) Do note the AA is set really low.


sorry for my bad english, I´m from germany....
You mean there are cinema 4D users who aren't from germany, you germans sure ask for a lot of features. I'll try my best not to hold it against you

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by flingster
yeah i know what you mean..but refraction was in...yet reflection not...now seemed odd to develop refraction and include but not include reflection...thats all.

btw...illustrate! and eva also have reflections...as far as i can remember.

:beer:

The technology behind reflecting the lines and refracting them are very different. Its a current limitation but a guaranteed feature to be fixed in the future. Thing is didn't want to take out refraction if we have it. I'd take only refraction over none at all.

[flingster]

i get the impression you guys think i'm complaining about it...far from it...i gathered you were working on it...i was just curious about the if's and where for's so to speak thats all...i realise it is probably a technical nightmare so good luck with it...i'd rather it was held back personally than release a feature that was not fit for use..:shrug:

:thumbsup:

personally the whole S&T thing makes me all warm inside...can't wait to get my hands on it personally...bare in mind that this is release 1 and its already a force to be recon'd with...i find that staggering personally and maxon need to pat themselves on the back for that..imho.

[obeardy]

Originally posted by flingster
[B]yeah i know what you mean..but refraction was in...yet reflection not...now seemed odd to develop refraction and include but not include reflection...thats all.

btw...illustrate! and eva also have reflections...as far as i can remember.


Lets get something clarified first... we're talking and reflecting and refracting the LINES here, nothing else, yes?

Illustrate does NOT support either, and to the VERY BEST of my knowledge the ONLY other system that does is FinalToon (with limitations afaik!), Sketch supports refraction, it actually ray traces the line render, however, as I posted just a moment ago, reflection is a completely new level of complexity of Sketch to support and would have push release too far for a feature most users will probably never use, not to mention the memory use and speed it would require!

HTH!

[AdamT]

Originally posted by tonfarben
I ordered the update and S&T yesterday. :buttrock:
One Question: Those motion lines, when do they occur? is it controllable like, if the distance of beginning and end of a motion in an intervall of time is higher than x meter, a motion line will appear automatically?
How do the motionlines look? simple curve, crossed curve, doublecrossed courve and a bit of outline of the moving object i can imagine. Custumizeable, Combineable?

sorry for my bad english, I´m from germany....

Hi Tonfarben

Here are the options for motion lines:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/A/d/AdamTrachtenberg/MotLines.jpg
You can combine different styles in one style tag, or you can use multiple style tags if, for example, you only want two or three 2d lines but you want 10-12 curves.

When the lines appear depends upon the threshold value. The lower the setting is the slower movements have to be to generate the lines.

[flingster]

see my reply above must have posted at same time.:rolleyes:

[flingster]

Originally posted by obeardy
Lets get something clarified first... we're talking and reflecting and refracting the LINES here, nothing else, yes?

Illustrate does NOT support either, and to the VERY BEST of my knowledge the ONLY other system that does is FinalToon (with limitations afaik!), Sketch supports refraction, it actually ray traces the line render, however, as I posted just a moment ago, reflection is a completely new level of complexity of Sketch to support and would have push release too far for a feature most users will probably never use, not to mention the memory use and speed it would require!

HTH!

my bad...
illustrate does support reflection/refraction in toon shading...NOT as you point out in lines though.
:wip: :shrug:

[obeardy]

Originally posted by flingster
my bad...
illustrate does support reflection/refraction in toon shading...NOT as you point out in lines though.

Phew :D I thought I'd kept to date on everything, glad they didn't sneak it in!

What was the other one you mentioned, eva? is that the carrara 3 npr?

Feel free to ask away about Sketch, I'm probably the only person in the world (at the moment!) that knows it completely :beer: and I'm learning new tricks from other people, so it won't be long before I'm no longer an expert! :eek:

I check in the forums from time to time, especially when I have something I can help with like now.

[tonfarben]

That´s awesome! Those motionlines...
BTW: Nice reply, kaiskai, made me grin...
thanks for showing that dialogue, AdamT

BTW2: I didn´t get it all with the lines and reflections. But isn´t it possible to render the reflections in normal raytracemode and make up the result with lines? Imagine a mirror in the bathroom showing some edges of the room the camera normally doesn´t see. Render it raytraced (internally and we don´t see the process) and the result appearing on the mirror is then baked (we also don´t see this process) onto the mirror itself and ready to be rendered with lines, which we see then. Just a silly idea by one who doesn´t know anything about programming....

[flingster]

CLIPPED FROM DAVID GOULD WEBSITE - ILLUSTRATE-------
---
History
Illustrate! was first released in 1994(3DS R3 for MS-DOS) and has provided the "best of class" technology ever since. Over the years many competing companies have since discontinued their renderers while Illustrate! has gone from strength to strength. Illustrate! is often the first to bring you the newest cutting-edge technologies. Amongst Illustrate!'s many "firsts":

1st cel and illustration renderer for 3DS MAX 4.x, 3DS MAX 3.x., 3DS MAX 1.x, 3DS DOS.
1st vector renderer for 3DS MAX, including the first Shockwave Flash and Adobe Illustrator output.
1st renderer to support reflections and refractions in toon shading.
1st renderer to support vector output of variable line weights.
http://www.davidgould.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eva..but then its a renderer...never tried it...and not a lot of info on reflection really..line or otherwise.
http://www.algorithmic.com/eva_e.html
so a bit hard to tell really.

cartoonreyes...doesn't mention it (assume not then!).
http://www.reyes-infografica.net/plugins/cartoon.php

finaltoon
http://www.finalrender.com
mentions it has reflect/refract lines

absolutely no idea about things like brazil or mentral ray..would doubt it.
as for carrara and its npr (impression...not a great deal of info about it
http://www.eovia.com/carrara/whats_new_car3.jsp

basically the more and more i find out about S&T the better and better it sounds...really really looking forward to it..you guys really pulled the rabbit out of the hat on this one...good on ya.

[obeardy]

Originally posted by tonfarben
That´s awesome! Those motionlines...
BTW: Nice reply, kaiskai, made me grin...
thanks for showing that dialogue, AdamT

BTW2: I didn´t get it all with the lines and reflections. But isn´t it possible to render the reflections in normal raytracemode and make up the result with lines? Imagine a mirror in the bathroom showing some edges of the room the camera normally doesn´t see. Render it raytraced (internally and we don´t see the process) and the result appearing on the mirror is then baked (we also don´t see this process) onto the mirror itself and ready to be rendered with lines, which we see then. Just a silly idea by one who doesn´t know anything about programming....

nice idea :thumbsup: however! the lines have to be generated from the polygons (pre-render), this is a geometry based render system since they give better quality and more flexibility, this isn't a shader or "toon shader" or cel shader etc. this is a real, true, line render geometry based system that can style the render to just about anything you can throw at it :p

Projecting polygon meshes onto complex reflective surfaces would not be a very efficient solution, sorry :D

Its not that we don't know how to do it, WE DO! it was purely a time/development issue, we had a list of features we wanted and those that were wanted by the many (excellent!) testers, many of whom were around since the VERY early alpha stage. This was a feature that was given a low priority because of the time required to fully implement it against how much it was likely to be useful and then weighted against what testers and we ourselves thought about it, we could have added so many more "features", but I'm just guess here that maybe it would be better that you didn't have to wait another year before it could be released :beer:

Reflection support is such a tiny feature, but yes, such a massive undertaking, maybe that nobody but FinalToon "support" it might give you a clue that it isn't that easy and not that vital. I personally have no idea how good the FinalToon reflection is, I just hear that it is limited.

Now... how about some of the other features in Sketch, editor display during modelling maybe, or the various styles you can do (err, I mean virtually unlimited!), or how about getting Sketch to animate the lines (draw them), or the available line creation types (Sketch has the most I've ever seen, honest!), or all the modifiers for color, opacity and thickness, more than any other system, and you get to do it with color too! plus for the brave, you can add coffee! or how about the shaders! ...

[flingster]

Originally posted by obeardy
this is a geometry based render system since they give better quality and more flexibility, this isn't a shader or "toon shader" or cel shader etc. this is a real, true, line render geometry based system that can style the render to just about anything you can throw at it :p
...
Now... how about some of the other features in Sketch, editor display during modelling maybe, or the various styles you can do (err, I mean virtually unlimited!), or how about getting Sketch to animate the lines (draw them), or the available line creation types (Sketch has the most I've ever seen, honest!), or all the modifiers for color, opacity and thickness, more than any other system, and you get to do it with color too! plus for the brave, you can add coffee! or how about the shaders! ...

that top para really sums up why this is hot s**t...and such good news for cinema users.

as for the second para...no fair! its like look what i got...you gotta wait...heh heh. Any chance you can tell us a bit about that coffee part not that i'm likely to understand but it sounds like potential very very useful...

does anybody have an example of animating lines..would be interested to see...how is that controlled?

[Chrissyboy]

Originally posted by Kaiskai
...don't even get me started on 2004 or its EULA, users are screwing themselves if they buy 2004 with its current EULA...

Hi Kai - I'm intrigued, is there something we should know? I've read a bit about the component issues and that you're forbidden from distributing anything that uses Macromedia sample code - is that what you mean? Or is there something else lurking below...

C

[LucentDreams]

yeah thats exactly it, with MX they creates this new almost opensource like community of Slash users, and then the very next version, and now I can't even provide my clients with source code for a simple component on a contract deal. Clients often want the source code so that if anything happens the code goes with them and someone esle can continue development. Now we can't sign those types of deals making clients less interested.

Its a very dumb move thats not getting them a lot of 2004 business.

[flingster]

its called arrogance isn't it...adobe pulling out of livemotion development...wonder whether macromedias monopoly had anything to do with it?
:D

[obeardy]

Originally posted by flingster
that top para really sums up why this is hot s**t...and such good news for cinema users.

as for the second para...no fair! its like look what i got...you gotta wait...heh heh. Any chance you can tell us a bit about that coffee part not that i'm likely to understand but it sounds like potential very very useful...

does anybody have an example of animating lines..would be interested to see...how is that controlled?

I think there is plenty in Sketch to give plenty of people a fair amount of new toys and tools to use, I wouldn't even dare think what v2 might be like :drool: but lets stick with v1 for now :p

As for coffee, I'm not much of a coffee expert. What it does let you do is to write a coffee script as a modifier, so you can affect the color, opacity and thickness during rendering the lines. Sketch gives the coffee script some variables to use (such as where the lines is on the screen, width, height, 3d positions, color, thickness...) then the script can do its stuff and give back a new color, or change the thickness/opacity, I'm sure some real coffee users will be able to make some interested styles with this, but for everyone else (me included) I think Sketch has enough modifiers to enable anyone to create virtually any medium or style (well, thats the theory!).

[flingster]

does it add anything to multi pass options?

[obeardy]

Originally posted by flingster
does it add anything to multi pass options?

Yep, it has a post render option which can then fill multipass channels with all sorts; splitting each line type, visible, hidden, depth, alpha...

[flingster]

ooh yes...it just keeps getting better and better
:thumbsup: :buttrock: :thumbsup:

[LucentDreams]

do note flingster that not only does Sketch have a great multipass output ability, but C4D now does post effect multipass so glows and highlights and the likes can be rendered as post effect layers.

[lllab]

oh yes, this is also one thing i do appreciate very much.

so i can finally do posts effects in a seperate pass:-)

kaiskai, do you know is there still the limitation of 4000 pixels maximum for posteffects like glow, and do they all work together now (like motion blur, depth blur, glow & flare)?

and doeas the new radiocity feature have other advantages than animation (overall speed)?

thanks

lllab
stefan

[LucentDreams]

the new radiosity is slower, but much better for animation and faster then using a high stochastic GI setting.

I'm not sure about the post effects stuff as I haven't tested it at all myself.

[Venkman]

You know, this is just sounding too freaking cool. I'm talking to Maxon now about getting a bundle from them, too bad S&T isn't included in the studio bundle! :thumbsdow

But god, the ideas I'm getting just thinking about this stuff... 3d cartoon characters, animations... That motion line thing is something I never even considered. WOW.

[JoelOtron]

Hi All

I'm eagerly awaiting my S&T and 8.5 package. :)

I was wondering if that NPR presentation at siggraph a couple years ago (the one done by the computer science people at Princeton U I believe) contributed to the technology or at least inspired the creation of the S&T module.

(I'll see if I can find the link--its been posted here b4)

A lot of the stuff looks pretty darned close.

[obeardy]

Originally posted by JoelD
Hi All

I'm eagerly awaiting my S&T and 8.5 package. :)

I was wondering if that NPR presentation at siggraph a couple years ago (the one done by the computer science people at Princeton U I believe) contributed to the technology or at least inspired the creation of the S&T module.

(I'll see if I can find the link--its been posted here b4)

A lot of the stuff looks pretty darned close.

Possibly indirectly, I don't know what that presentation was so it didn't directly contribute to Sketch and Toon, however, all the guys and gals that tested Sketch contributed their own ideas and points of view and I know many of them have seen and used many different applications, seen different presentations and read various papers; so if you add it all together... well, you get Sketch and Toon :D

I think you'll find its fairly unique when you get it, a whole collection of options never seen together in one package until now plus many new areas :p

[JoelOtron]

Originally posted by obeardy
Possibly indirectly, I don't know what that presentation was so it didn't directly contribute to Sketch and Toon, however, all the guys and gals that tested Sketch contributed their own ideas and points of view and I know many of them have seen and used many different applications, seen different presentations and read various papers; so if you add it all together... well, you get Sketch and Toon :D

I think you'll find its fairly unique when you get it, a whole collection of options never seen together in one package until now plus many new areas :p

Thanks

Yep--I'm pretty psyched!

[flingster]

you can say that again..
as for the multipass stuff...i'm so so glad this was thought about should lift the potential tenfold...

S&T seems to have majorly taken note of users wants and needs is this a fundamental change in tact with maxon development..seems big on user led development...or was this just because of the nature of the product type?

btw: joeld would love to see that presentation if you still got the link.

[JoelOtron]

Here it is

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/gfx/proj/wnpr/

There is a movie that demonstrates the rendering system.

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by flingster
y
S&T seems to have majorly taken note of users wants and needs is this a fundamental change in tact with maxon development..seems big on user led development...or was this just because of the nature of the product type?


I think it's just a sign that Maxon is improving over time ;)

[flingster]

Originally posted by JoelD
Here it is

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/gfx/proj/wnpr/

There is a movie that demonstrates the rendering system.


cheers...:thumbsup:

[LucentDreams]

I'd just like to point out after Obeardy's comments, that Sketch and toon had a development process I've never seen before, so mcuh input was taken and he and maxon really listened well. Especially when we said we know what other line renderers and NPR systems can do, but why put a limit on control. I'm sure many users will hardly ever need 80% of the controls available, but for someone like me, knowing I can literally do any effect I want finally is a great feeling to have.

With sketch and toon, its no longer a question of Can it be done, for me its simply a matter of how will I do it.

[ThirdEye]

Maxon is one of the most intelligent companies i know. They made a product which was a little toy and managed to make it compete with the big old boys of 3D. How? Putting a lot of money into it? I don't really know, but i don't think they had a lot of money to spend, i mean, Maxon's not Avid or Autodesk or SGI or Microsoft. Making exactly the same things others already did? No. They realized others could do very well that job and they started making something others don't have: Bodypaint3D and Sketch&Toon are witnessing it. They're the best in their area and are helping (BP) or will help (S&T) Maxon to expand its market. Maxon's philosophy is really becoming something like "let's make something uncommon and let's make it better than anyone else". I couldn't be happier. :)

[Continuumx]

ThirdEye01: You can say that again.

I mean, I just bought C4D and AR about a month ago. I wish then I had got the studio bundle, but really what I wanted was something as good as Sketchup 3D at sketch rendering and something akin to Final Toon. I figured I could eventually get BP to do this. But I waited, and lo and behold, this new module.

I really did not need to make another major software purchase but you know, I never regretted spending the almost $1300 on C4D and AR, in fact, I know I made a good investment. So I got the upgrade and S&T but I know the hard earned money is worth it, because Maxon is doing it right.

I also think with S&T, Maxon is going to see a very strong US sales that I think will be very unexpected. I showed a friend who works with 3D Max and he is giving Cinema a second look and is impressed with the S&T module.

A lot of people are going to move from other software to this software in the coming year.

And I cannot wait to start doing both NPR and PR images. The NPR is really a medium that is very young as far as CGI is concerned. S&T does it right, better than Piranesi 3 and it does have the right controls for doing the sketchy look with overshoots and the like.

-Tyrone

[AdamT]

It's very true, Maxon's approach when adding a new feature or module is to not only match the competition, but to push the envelope and make it both better and more accessible. I think they really hit it out of the ballpark with both BP2 and Sketch & Toon.

[flingster]

no to mediocrity...
yes to artist driven tools..

well i placed my order BP2upgrade,8.5 and the baby S&T...sweet.

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
They made a product which was a little toy and managed to make it compete with the big old boys of 3D. How?

Compare Maxon to, say... RealSoft:
RealSoft had an amazingly powerful application
It had a horrendous GUI
It was excuciatingly unstable

Maxon's approach:
Focus first on the GUI (remember v6? Nowhere near the competition in featuers, but with an incredible GUI?)
Make it rock solid (quality software engineering and QA -- the
cross-platform capability is part of that)
After they got the users interested, THEN they started working on
features.

Building on a rock-solid base is always easier than building on a
base of spaghetti code...

:)

[Venkman]

These latest upgrades have made me stop waffling and take the plunge.

I'm going full Studio Bundle with BP2. I've lurked on here long enough and looked into many competitors, and for the price point (and on the Mac), nothing appeals to my way of thinking and workflow more than C4d. I have been very impressed with the latest demo, and rendered speechless to see this program get upgraded three times in the past couple of months (8.1, 8.2, 8.5).

I want a company that stays on top of things. Maxon has definitely shown they are committed and this WILL pull in new users.

They got me. :scream:

[JoelOtron]

This is all great--but I wouldn't assume that people will switch to cinema because iof S&T. Final toon and the like already exist, and who is to say that they couldnt develop more functionality into those plugins?

But on the bright side--at least Maxon is substantially raising the bar--perhaps driving the other companies to do so.

[JoelOtron]

Originally posted by flingster
no to mediocrity...
yes to artist driven tools..

well i placed my order BP2upgrade,8.5 and the baby S&T...sweet.

copycat!
:)
Did exactly the same thing a few days ago--I still havent installed BP2 yet though--cant get to it--and its killing me. Its sitting on my desk just staring at me (2-day delivery for nothing) I also got my BP2 shirt and another one of those handy Maxon cd wallets. I especially like the back of the shirt--but I doubt my wife will let me wear it.

:drool:

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by JoelD
This is all great--but I wouldn't assume that people will switch to cinema because iof S&T.


True, but that's not the point; the point is the whole package of
which S&T is a part. People who have been considering adding
or moving to Cinema might now have one more reason to do so,
or one less reason not to.

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by JoelD
This is all great--but I wouldn't assume that people will switch to cinema because iof S&T. Final toon and the like already exist, and who is to say that they couldnt develop more functionality into those plugins?

But on the bright side--at least Maxon is substantially raising the bar--perhaps driving the other companies to do so.

Actually I think releasing FBX at the same time as Sketch is genious. Now people can look and not just say wouldn't it be nice if my app could do that, but rather say hey I can get C4D base and Sketch for a cheap price and have a whole new renderer with unmatched NPR and really cheap unlimted network rendering option.

Compare to the prices of brazil to get brazil toon, final render with the free final toon included, and they just don't compare for capability.

Sure they can go in a develop the same sorts of features, or most at least, but that will take them a long time, and while they are doing that Sketch will already be on its way to a new version with new standards to set, and maxon will still be focusing on the rest of the app.

The one thing I always love in renderer comparisons is the fact everyone seems to forgetthat brazil and final render cost insane amounts on top of the price of max which is the seconds most expensive of the top five 3D packages.you can get C4D base and Sketch for under $1000.

And I don'tthink Final toon is in heavy use yet, I mean how often do you see a render done in final toon. C4D isn't well known for big galleries of work I guess, But I've seen a lot of work for Sketch already in the testing environment.

[flingster]

Originally posted by JoelD
copycat!
:)
Did exactly the same thing a few days ago--I still havent installed BP2 yet though--cant get to it--and its killing me. Its sitting on my desk just staring at me (2-day delivery for nothing) I also got my BP2 shirt and another one of those handy Maxon cd wallets. I especially like the back of the shirt--but I doubt my wife will let me wear it.

:drool:

i just couldn't help myself...i'm sure my credit card was talking to me....BUY IT...BUY IT...:eek:

whats making maxon noticed industry wide (imho as always).
1)making a profit(sorry thats another thread)
2)BP2 and S&T
3)modularisation when the rest of the industry has gone for integration..by bolting on the kitchen sink.
4)dialogue with userbase...leading to exceptional developments like S&T
5)increasing userbase...take this forum..loads of new 6 users..but also loads of demo testers...

i would imagine if any ceo's of the competition were sleeping when it came to maxon...they aren't now.

what i don't want to see is maxon resting on its laurels....what i really love is what kai points out in the development of S&T is "Especially when we said we know what other line renderers and NPR systems can do, but why put a limit on control"....this is key to the whole success of the thing....raising the bar and being a leader not a follower.
:love:

[Emberghost]

Some of the main reasons I bought Cinema 4D was its easy learning curve, affordability, very customizable, and great people like you guys to support it. I have tried a lot of other programs and found this to be the most favorable. And Maxon is definitely headed in the right direction. Take a look at all the new stuff they come out with each year, this program is in the mix to be the best for sure imho.

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